Reliability in reality.

[American1776]

After reading about self defense shootings, especially recent ones, I began to wonder about how reliable semi-auto pistols REALLY are given the reality of dynamic self defense situations.

For example, I believe that in the recent Temple U. self defense firefight, I remember reading (from the actual student's testimony) that his gun had jammed. I've also read some accounts about the George Zimmerman case where it was alluded that his gun had jammed as well. I've read reports of LEO's having their firearms stove-pipe during firefights with bad guys, and sometime being killed because of the malfunction.

All of these accounts lead me to wonder...given the current technology of highly reliable auto pistols (glock, sig, hk, ruger, etc), it seems that the jam-factor is not just some super rare event that one can push to the back of his or her mind.

I myself carry a Sig, but I now think more often about the dynamics of a real-life combat situation, and I wonder how well automatics REALLY stand up to those rigors?

Please don't take this to be a revolver vs. auto debate. It is merely a thread that re-evaluates the real life reliability of the best auto pistols given the reality of self defense situations.

[Ranger P229]

After reading about self defense shootings, especially recent ones, I began to wonder about how reliable semi-auto pistols REALLY are given the reality of dynamic self defense situations.

For example, I believe that in the recent Temple U. self defense firefight, I remember reading (from the actual student's testimony) that his gun had jammed. I've also read some accounts about the George Zimmerman case where it was alluded that his gun had jammed as well. I've read reports of LEO's having their firearms stove-pipe during firefights with bad guys, and sometime being killed because of the malfunction.

All of these accounts lead me to wonder...given the current technology of highly reliable auto pistols (glock, sig, hk, ruger, etc), it seems that the jam-factor is not just some super rare event that one can push to the back of his or her mind.

I myself carry a Sig, but I now think more often about the dynamics of a real-life combat situation, and I wonder how well automatics REALLY stand up to those rigors?

Please don't take this to be a revolver vs. auto debate. It is merely a thread that re-evaluates the real life reliability of the best auto pistols given the reality of self defense situations.

I think thats a VERY fair question to ask. I used to carry a SIG 239, it would stovepipe maybe one in 75 rounds. I switched over to a 229 where the slide wouldn't lock back after my last round until I switched out to a lower power recoil spring. My Kimber Jams with reloaded military brass or other cheapie brass. My Steyr stovepipes from time to time. I've yet to own an auto that actually worked "flawlessly" for me.

I've carried and shot an S&W M&P 40 more than any other handgun, and while it hasn't stovepiped on me, it frequently comes out of battery when a new mag is inserted, and the slide will fail to lock back after the last round in the mag. This is with two different M&P's doing the exact same things.

The more experience with different autos I get, the less I trust them to do exactly what they're supposed to do with regularity, ie- fire a magazine full of ammo, have the slide lock out of battery and not go back into battery until either it is racked OR the slide release is activated.

Is that a huge deal? yes and no. When you train to reload and hit the slide release it throws off your mental focus when the slide racks forward when you insert a mag. When you get used to the slide releasing when you insert a mag and then it doesn't it throws you off again.

[Metz]

I will blame lack of training. Being an active RSO I have significant experience with modern semi-auto handguns and malfunctions are very rare in controlled environment (i.e. range) with proper grip and decent ammo for 9x19+ caliber handguns.

I NEVER had a stove pipe in my carry XD9sub, yet I shot waaay over 1000 rounds from it (again - in controlled environment), including shitty Tula. Does that mean in will never jam in the real life shootout? Nope. Because a shooter (stress etc) is also a factor. Significant one.

[American1776]

I will blame lack of training. Being an active RSO I have significant experience with modern semi-auto handguns and malfunctions are very rare in controlled environment (i.e. range) with proper grip and decent ammo for 9x19+ caliber handguns.

I get what you're saying, and I agree with it. But...
Controlled environments are one thing. The reality of a dynamic and harsh self defense situation (where we aren't stationary, may not be standing up, maybe be shooting from behind cover, may be injured, may not have a proper grip, may be at contact distance, maybe be on the ground, may have limp-wristed due to injury or fear, may have something hit the slide/muzzle, etc.

The possibilities in a reality self defense situation seem endless. And, like I said, I've read more than just one account of self defense encounters where the gun malfunctions. So I'm not just dreaming up hypothetical 'what-ifs'. My curiosity in this matter originated from real empirical observations that do not seem negligible nor super rare.

[Ranger P229]

I will blame lack of training. Being an active RSO I have significant experience with modern semi-auto handguns and malfunctions are very rare in controlled environment (i.e. range) with proper grip and decent ammo for 9x19+ caliber handguns.

I NEVER had a stove pipe in my carry XD9sub, yet I shot waaay over 1000 rounds from it (again - in controlled environment), including shitty Tula. Does that mean in will never jam in the real life shootout? Nope. Because a shooter (stress etc) is also a factor. Significant one.

I carry an M&P as my duty weapon, and coming out of battery when a mag is inserted is such a common issue that instructors have to go over the fact that training to forcefully insert the mag expecting the slide to rack forward is not a good idea.

I'll run an experiment today at work at the end of my shift. I'll lock my slide back and insert a mag 50 times and see how many times it comes out of battery without touching the mag release and how many times it does what it is supposed to do.

I'm glad you've had luck with your carry pistol though.

[Metz]

I carry an M&P as my duty weapon, and coming out of battery when a mag is inserted is such a common issue...

Whoa! Thanks for the info. S&W M&P handguns are not so common around where I work, but this is definitely valuable piece of information.

[LifeInPa]

I personally never had any issues like mentioned here with my M&P 9. I am still learning so at times I know my grip is probably wrong but it still operates and I only fed it cheap ammo so far: Tula, Federal, the cheapest bulk packages of 9mm I can get my hands on, etc. Nothing that cost more than $9 and change for 50 rounds and that's about 1500 rounds so far. Not one issue at all, except my front dot of the 3 dot sight falling out on me back in December. Repalced with Trinium night sights from Trijicon.

I also smack the magazine in with my palm and the slide never goes into battery until I do it manually.

[Swarner793]

I agree anything can go awry during fight.

While it is anectodal, I have an LEO friend that was in an altercation/disarm involving an emotionally disturbed person. Subject attempted to shoot him with a .357 revolver. He held onto the firearm for dear life, and felt the subject pull the trigger and cycle the hammer. His finger got in between the hammer and the frame effectively disabling the revolver. My friend sustained slight hand injury, sprains and such, because they fought over the firearm for several minutes.

So, one incident that I know of where a revolver was disabled as well.

Be safe (and maximize distance).

Scott

[tabasco_joe]

The first round should be most reliable to fire so it's important to get on target with it. BTW the scuttlebutt on Zimmerman's situation was that Martin had hold of the gun and caused the cycling problem. Interesting to see if that comes out in the latest evidence releases.

[Neko456]

Some of the tourture drills that modern automatics go through would destroy a revolver or lock up the cyclinder from the grime. Though the revolver is a great gun to use and own the modern day semi auto has a proven track record. Do you think that Militaries and LEO groups from the Local to FBI would swiched to semi autos if they hadn't proven themselves.

Anything made by man will fail.

Once in a moving from target to target shooting exercise my Beretta 92fs stove pipe. While firig and moving I slip and fell a empty came back and landed between barrel and frame like a stove pipe. I just clearred it and continued the course. Sh% happens thats why we train. You are right that couldn't have happened with a revolver hummmm. But it was timed and I'd have to reload at twice to finish the course with 6 shot revolver.