Form 1 SBR for 18 Year Old?

[RuthlessZ]

I've decided I want to build an SBR AR-15, from what I've gathered this is legal at 18 as long as I build it, not buy it from a dealer/licensee.

I have several questions.

1. I've already built an AR-15. I assume that I have to get a new virgin receiver rather than use my current rifle lower which is fine because I want to build a new AR anyway.

2. I am also curious, does anyone know if any sheriffs in the area will sign off, If I have to go the trust route I won't do it. I live in Indiana Township/Allegheny County to be specific. I read jwramp's post about the Sheriff signing his. I was just wondering where/who that would be, and If I could use the same guy.

3. Also since this is a firearm would I be forced to transport it as a handgun since I don't have a LTCF? Should I get my Maine CCW so I can transport it fully?

4. I was also curious after you get the stamp is there any time expectation for you to build because I plan to join the Marines and figure, If things go the way I hope to, I would likely be out of state by the time the paperwork was approved, would that be an issue?

5. I also understand that you have to "have control of your NFA item at all times" or something of that sort, what does this mean exactly? I only have a wooden gun cabinet for the current 6 guns I own. But could likely get a safe before the paperwork was done if needed.

6. Last question is can I obtain the parts prior to being approved?

[cds_arms]

I've decided I want to build an SBR AR-15, from what I've gathered this is legal at 18 as long as I build it, not buy it from a dealer/licensee.

I have several questions.

1. I've already built an AR-15. I assume that I have to get a new virgin receiver rather than use my current rifle lower which is fine because I want to build a new AR anyway.

2. I am also curious, does anyone know if any sheriffs in the area will sign off, If I have to go the trust route I won't do it. I live in Indiana Township/Allegheny County to be specific. I read jwramp's post about the Sheriff signing his. I was just wondering where/who that would be, and If I could use the same guy.

3. Also since this is a firearm would I be forced to transport it as a handgun since I don't have a LTCF? Should I get my Maine CCW so I can transport it fully?

4. I was also curious after you get the stamp is there any time expectation for you to build because I plan to join the Marines and figure, If things go the way I hope to, I would likely be out of state by the time the paperwork was approved, would that be an issue?

5. I also understand that you have to "have control of your NFA item at all times" or something of that sort, what does this mean exactly? I only have a wooden gun cabinet for the current 6 guns I own. But could likely get a safe before the paperwork was done if needed.

6. Last question is can I obtain the parts prior to being approved?

I'll bite.

Yes, 18 to possess or make an NFA weapon, 21 to buy from a dealer. Similar to a handgun.

1. You may use your existing lower or a buy a new one, your choice. It will need engraved with your name, city and state as per ATF guideline. It's easier to do before it's a NFA weapon.

2. I've heard of Allegheny Co Sheriff signing. I'd check your local CLEO first.

3. Yes, in PA, SBR's are 'handguns'. They do follow some different rules however since they are NFA weapons. I'd get your PA LTCF to feel all fuzzy inside. I personally wouldn't recommend carrying a SBR however. Better carry weapons can be had perhaps...

4. No issue. The engraved lower *is* the SBR. No need to have an upper or anything to be a SBR, it's still a SBR. Put your shortie upper on it when you feel like it. Otherwise it's fine to have the longer upper on it.

5. This essentially means you must be in custody of the firearm. Can't loan it to *anyone* (except to a FFL for work). You can let people shoot it, but you should be within sight of i.

6. Yes you can obtain the parts. What you do with them is on you. If you put the short upper on before you get the stamp, that's bad. If you have the parts, you're fine. Many people build an AR pistol from a virgin lower so they can play with the gun before the stamp comes. Having the upper helps to measure overall length for the form.


Are you under 21 however? This could cause other issues. No LTCF. Possible AR pistol issues, etc.

Hope that helps. Any other questions just ask.

[RuthlessZ]

I am under 21 that's why I'm asking these questions. I'm 18 to be exact. Don't worry about me getting the AR lower, my father gifted me the stripped lower for my first AR I'd bet he will oblige me for this since stripped lowers are only $90. Yes he pays for it. I think I may get my Maine CCW since I only have to be 18 to get it. My largest concern is getting the CLEO/Sheriff to sign of on it. Also if I do go away for the Marines are there any issues with it being locked up at home?

[cds_arms]

I am under 21 that's why I'm asking these questions. I'm 18 to be exact. Don't worry about me getting the AR lower, mt father gifted me the stripped lower for my first AR I'd bet he will oblige me for this since stripped lowers are only $90. Yes he pays for it. I think I may get my Maine CCW since I only have to be 18 to get it. My largest concern is getting the CLEO/Sheriff to sign of on it. Also if I do go away for the Marines are there any issues with it being locked up at home?

It's legal for an NFA weapon to be locked up so long as you only have the key or access for it. If nobody else has any control then you have not had an illegal transfer. So to answer your question, yes you will be fine with it locked at home.

I'd ask your local chief of police if they will sign. There is normally no reason why they won't unless they are anti-gun or have reason to believe they shouldn't sign for you.

[RuthlessZ]

Well I have and no criminal record whatsoever, so hopefully that will be enough to prove to the Sheriff/CLEO that I'm responsible enough to have an AR that's 6 inches below the minimum

[JayBell]

I'll bite.

Yes, 18 to possess or make an NFA weapon, 21 to buy from a dealer. Similar to a handgun.

1. You may use your existing lower or a buy a new one, your choice. It will need engraved with your name, city and state as per ATF guideline. It's easier to do before it's a NFA weapon.

2. I've heard of Allegheny Co Sheriff signing. I'd check your local CLEO first.

3. Yes, in PA, SBR's are 'handguns'. They do follow some different rules however since they are NFA weapons. I'd get your PA LTCF to feel all fuzzy inside. I personally wouldn't recommend carrying a SBR however. Better carry weapons can be had perhaps...

4. No issue. The engraved lower *is* the SBR. No need to have an upper or anything to be a SBR, it's still a SBR. Put your shortie upper on it when you feel like it. Otherwise it's fine to have the longer upper on it.

5. This essentially means you must be in custody of the firearm. Can't loan it to *anyone* (except to a FFL for work). You can let people shoot it, but you should be within sight of i.

6. Yes you can obtain the parts. What you do with them is on you. If you put the short upper on before you get the stamp, that's bad. If you have the parts, you're fine. Many people build an AR pistol from a virgin lower so they can play with the gun before the stamp comes. Having the upper helps to measure overall length for the form.


Are you under 21 however? This could cause other issues. No LTCF. Possible AR pistol issues, etc.

Hope that helps. Any other questions just ask.

SBRs are not "handguns" in PA, they are considered FIREARMS for LTCF purposes, but are NOT in any way "handguns" at all.

definition of Firearm for LTCF purposes:

pistol or revolver with a barrel of 15" or less
rifle with a barrel less than 16"
shotgun with a barrel less than 18"

further, people under the age of 21 may own and possess handguns, be it AR pistol or a derringer, no matter, they just cannot buy via a DEALER.

[cds_arms]

SBRs are not "handguns" in PA, they are considered FIREARMS for LTCF purposes, but are NOT in any way "handguns" at all.

definition of Firearm for LTCF purposes:

pistol or revolver with a barrel of 15" or less
rifle with a barrel less than 16"
shotgun with a barrel less than 18"

further, people under the age of 21 may own and possess handguns, be it AR pistol or a derringer, no matter, they just cannot buy via a DEALER.

SBR's are sold and transferred as 'handguns' in PA. In PA for firearms sales there is ONLY 'long-gun' and 'handgun'. The barrel is less than 16", so it cannot be a 'long-gun'. Who said anything about LTCF stuff?

If my memory serves me, all NFA is a 'firearm' in PA due to the NFA status. That doesn't change anything about the sale of it however, it's still a LG or HG. More specifically a 'taxable' or 'nontaxable' HG or LG.

A customer buys a SBR from me. Upon approval of their Form 4, I must fill out an ATF 4473 AND the PSP Record of Sale form because the SBR's barrel and overall length make it a 'hand-gun' to the PSP.

Contact Ralph Nader at the PA State Police. He is the head of the Firearm Records Division and will explain to you the classification types.

[JayBell]

SBR's are sold and transferred as 'handguns' in PA. In PA for firearms sales there is ONLY 'long-gun' and 'handgun'. The barrel is less than 16", so it cannot be a 'long-gun'. Who said anything about LTCF stuff? I'm not quite sure what your point is?

A customer buys a SBR from me. Upon approval of their Form 4, I must fill out an ATF 4473 AND the PSP Record of Sale form because the SBR's barrel and overall length make it a 'hand-gun' to the PSP.

Contact Ralph Nader at the PA State Police. He is the head of the Firearm Records Division and will explain to you the classification types.

I dont need to contact anyone, thanks, I'm experienced in NFA, and firearm dealing in general, and the various definitions of "firearms" in PA...

they ARE NOT "handguns" THEY are "firearms"... there are various definitions for for firearms in PA, from the "bullet spitter" definition to the "firearms" definition I'm speaking of, one of which SBRs, SBS, certain AOWs, and MGs with sub 16" barrels fall under. they are still not "handguns", but due to barrel length and being a concealable firearm, they must be transferred via the PICs "handgun form" if ya wanna call it that.

however, those rifles and shotguns are still not "handguns".

If my memory serves me, all NFA is a 'firearm' in PA due to the NFA status.

not really, for example, if i sell a m16 with a 20" or 16" barrel, and a min 26" OAL, its still NFA, as its a machine gun, and its still a firearm as it meets another definition of firearm under PA law, however from a dealer it only needs a 4473, not the PICs form also, as the gun is simply a rifle with title one length, NFA status doesn't matter with title 1 lengths firearms.

however, put a sub 16" barrel on it, like my 11.5" SBR, or whatnot, it now qualifies under another and different "firearm" definition for NFA items, and now needs to be transferred with a 4473 AND the PICs form.

but the fact remains, its still doesn't magically turn into a "handgun" under PA or Federal law... I understand what you're saying, however you're just interpreting the "firearm" classification incorrectly is all, and its confusing in a legal sense

[cds_arms]

I'll bite my tongue and simply duck out of this thread. I've already answered the OP and stated factual information on how I successfuly and legally perform NFA firearms related transactions under state and federal law as a licensed firearms dealer.

Since we're splitting hairs here, I'll make the distinction of the 'PICS form' you've spoken in regards to above.

The form in question is a PA State Police Record of Sale (ROS) form. PICS refers to the 'PA Instant Check System' and refers only to the state background check replacement for the ATF's NICS. The PICS 'check' is done on all firearms in PA with a disposition to a non-licensee, regardless of form used, and has no relation to only the ROS form as you have indicated. IE a 'PICS check' is needed on an ATF 4473 as well.

I understand what you are saying as well, however the information I provided was accurate, correct and factual in nature. The OP's question was in regards to the 'manufacturing' of the SBR NFA firearm and my classification of 'handgun' was correct concerning the paperwork from a licensees' standpoint.

I've sold and transferred, as well as manufactured both individially (Form 1) as well as under SOT 02 (Form 2) many, many, many SBR's in the state of Pennylvania. The Record of Sale was always needed and the Surcharge Remittance form sent to the PSP was always completed for a 'taxable handgun' or a 'non-taxable handgun' depending upon where the SBR was purchased. There is no denying that as correct.

We agree to disagree. If you care to digress more, please cite your sources with state and/or federal law. As for now, I believe the OP has received significant enough answers to his questions.