"I'll kill you!". Cond red in a Gun free zone.

**pa350z** · April 20th, 2012, 08:33 PM

To the OP, its nice you did not get hurt. Unfortunately, its your job to restrain and contain these patients. You do not have the luxury to use lethal force to stop the aggressor. Many health care providers do get hurt taking care of mentally disturbed people. It goes with the turf they say. Unfortunately, I am sort of disappointed that you are making this post on a gun owners forum. Your mind set is somewhat troubling to me. I am an EMT and have been for decades and the thought of raising a patient care type issue on this or any other gun owners forum has never even crossed my mind. You work in the ER to help people no matter how "messed up" they are physically and/or mentally. Its your job. My suggestion is if that somehow bothers you is to seek another profession. IMHO

**Ranger P229** · April 20th, 2012, 08:44 PM

To the OP: Obviously you can't use lethal force, but are you also restricted from striking someone that is striking you? It sounds as though grabbing onto limbs was the response to this person using fists and legs. Excuse me for sounding indelicate, but you're not able to elbow someone in the face, knee them in the stomach, or use any other strikes?

If you're forced to work someplace where people are allowed to strike you and your only defense is to hold onto them then that is seriously F'ed up.

A friend of my fiance's worked with mentally handicapped teenage children, and she would get her butt beat at work, she was even bitten. Faculty wasn't ever allowed to strike back. That blows my mind.

**The Unknown 1087** · April 20th, 2012, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by pa350z

To the OP, its nice you did not get hurt. Unfortunately, its your job to restrain and contain these patients. You do not have the luxury to use lethal force to stop the aggressor. Many health care providers do get hurt taking care of mentally disturbed people. It goes with the turf they say. Unfortunately, I am sort of disappointed that you are making this post on a gun owners forum. Your mind set is somewhat troubling to me. I am an EMT and have been for decades and the thought of raising a patient care type issue on this or any other gun owners forum has never even crossed my mind. You work in the ER to help people no matter how "messed up" they are physically and/or mentally. Its your job. My suggestion is if that somehow bothers you is to seek another profession. IMHO

I never once suggested about using lethal force against him. I stated I could not carry at work. I wouldn't have drawn even if I was. Many of us EMT's in the world do get hurt dealing with these patients. Being dissapointed about writing this on a gun forum? I was going to put it in the lounge but wasnt sure where to put it. I fail to understand the issue with posting this. I don't always help in the ER, I've been over there less then 5 times in over a year. My reason for posting this, what was because I wanted to share my story with how a situation can turn bad within seconds. Doesn't matter where anyone is. He was literally calm sitting in the room to physically violent in less then 10 seconds. I kind put violent rage guy+GFZ= good story for this site. I know enough to use the force I have to use to stop someone from injurying myself or others.

Originally Posted by Ranger P229

To the OP: Obviously you can't use lethal force, but are you also restricted from striking someone that is striking you? It sounds as though grabbing onto limbs was the response to this person using fists and legs. Excuse me for sounding indelicate, but you're not able to elbow someone in the face, knee them in the stomach, or use any other strikes?

If you're forced to work someplace where people are allowed to strike you and your only defense is to hold onto them then that is seriously F'ed up.

A friend of my fiance's worked with mentally handicapped teenage children, and she would get her butt beat at work, she was even bitten. Faculty wasn't ever allowed to strike back. That blows my mind.

Yes, we are not allowed to hit back...at all. Unless you are in fear for your life. If he would have gotten hurt while getting taking down...that's ok. We held on to him until they could give him a shot, which took them awhile. It sucked.

**LilEMT** · April 20th, 2012, 10:33 PM

Originally Posted by The Unknown 1087

They do have a locked room. They don't lock the door if the person is calm.

PD rode in with the ambulane and medic and left after they got to the ER. He was there for 2hours before he snapped

Ahh I see. I missed the time frame, you said you were worried about the medic being hurt.

**LilEMT** · April 20th, 2012, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by QuackXP

Has a change in protocol for locking the door been brought up?

Locked seclusion is a form of restraint and has a lot of paperwork that goes with it. It needs to be warrented by state law.

**JonEMTP** · April 21st, 2012, 02:57 AM

A situation like you describe can go from calm to "oh shit" before you can realize it is happening. there's no good way to ALWAYS prevent it. DCIan is spot on with his point. Sometimes a calm voice and compassion works FAR better than going hands-on, and the results are usually better for all involved.

As an EMT/Medic Student/Medic and hospital Security Officer, I've been hands on with more psych patients than I can count. Now that I'm a medic, I'm not hesitant to use "chemical restraint" when it's indicated. I don't like fighting with patients. The risk of injury to both myself and the patient is too high.

**9orangeletters** · April 21st, 2012, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by JonEMTP

A situation like you describe can go from calm to "oh shit" before you can realize it is happening. there's no good way to ALWAYS prevent it. DCIan is spot on with his point. Sometimes a calm voice and compassion works FAR better than going hands-on, and the results are usually better for all involved.

As an EMT/Medic Student/Medic and hospital Security Officer, I've been hands on with more psych patients than I can count. Now that I'm a medic, I'm not hesitant to use "chemical restraint" when it's indicated. I don't like fighting with patients. The risk of injury to both myself and the patient is too high.

Came in here to say this. I've yet to see someone able to fight through 5mg of midazolam IM after 5 minutes, and even if they can, I doubt they'll get through another 5. It's a huge safety issue to have someone blinded by rage kicking, clawing, swinging and biting everything in sight. I just wish I could get the sedative in a dart gun instead of having to get within swinging range to administer it.

If push comes to shove, hit them with 2mg/kg succinylcholine, and watch them try to fight through that. That's a drug I wish we had pre-hospital...

**Franky4Fingers** · April 21st, 2012, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by pa350z

To the OP, its nice you did not get hurt. Unfortunately, its your job to restrain and contain these patients. You do not have the luxury to use lethal force to stop the aggressor. Many health care providers do get hurt taking care of mentally disturbed people. It goes with the turf they say. Unfortunately, I am sort of disappointed that you are making this post on a gun owners forum. Your mind set is somewhat troubling to me. I am an EMT and have been for decades and the thought of raising a patient care type issue on this or any other gun owners forum has never even crossed my mind. You work in the ER to help people no matter how "messed up" they are physically and/or mentally. Its your job. My suggestion is if that somehow bothers you is to seek another profession. IMHO

Yes, because he should allow people to brutally maim and possibly even murder him.

Yes your there to help, thats obvious, that doesnt even need to be stated. But basic defense is the right of ANY living creature. And like any decent human being, anything and everything should be used to avoid any type of force no matter what. Regardless of situation.

I honestly cant believe YOUR mind set on this.