Philadelphia legal sovereignty & CCW

[PA Rifleman]

Years ago, I recall Philadelphia had draconian penalties for carrying, and ignored PA state law for decades. The Phila strategy had a problem...the hardcore bad guys would plead out of them during pretrial negotiations, but hapless travelers lacking any other charges *would* be charged. This way, more often the least dangerous people were penalized for carrying.

Are my memories correct...when PA went to "shall issue", Phila flatly refused, and the governor hinted at National Guard-mandated enforcement if Phila continued to resist.

Does anyone have first source documentation of this showdown?

[danp]

Years ago, I recall Philadelphia had draconian penalties for carrying, and ignored PA state law for decades. The Phila strategy had a problem...the hardcore bad guys would plead out of them during pretrial negotiations, but hapless travelers lacking any other charges *would* be charged. This way, more often the least dangerous people were penalized for carrying.

Are my memories correct...when PA went to "shall issue", Phila flatly refused, and the governor hinted at National Guard-mandated enforcement if Phila continued to resist.

Does anyone have first source documentation of this showdown?

I don't know the details, but I can tell you that Philadelphia now abides by the law for issuing and honoring LTCFs. However there are still issues with them revoking permits for questionably legal reasons using questionably legal methods.

[Rule10b5]

Years ago, I recall Philadelphia had draconian penalties for carrying, and ignored PA state law for decades. The Phila strategy had a problem...the hardcore bad guys would plead out of them during pretrial negotiations, but hapless travelers lacking any other charges *would* be charged. This way, more often the least dangerous people were penalized for carrying.

Are my memories correct...when PA went to "shall issue", Phila flatly refused, and the governor hinted at National Guard-mandated enforcement if Phila continued to resist.

Does anyone have first source documentation of this showdown?

PA's first "shall issue" law was passed in 1989 or so (IIRC), and it contained a specific and intentional exemption that allowed the PPD Chief to decline to issue a permit based lack of need. In effect, the entire state was "shall issue" except for Philadelphia county.

In 1995, the UFA was amended, and Philadelphia lost its exemption, and became shall issue. There was, again, IIRC, a lawsuit that Philadelphia brought to declare the amendment invalid on "home rule" or "city of the first class" grounds. I forget the specifics. I don't recall anything about the National Guard, though. The lawsuit was the extent of the show down as far as I know. If you heard anything about the NG, it was probably just political posing by the Gov.

Similarly, Philadelphia was never able to "ignore" the permits issued throughout the rest of the state between 1989-1995. All permits are "state" permits even though they are issued at the county level. If you had a Chester issued permit, you could carry in Philadelphia then, just like you can now.

The 1989-1995 period was what gave rise to the whole internet/urban myth that you can't carry in Philadelphia, or that they'll arrest you for carrying, etc. Well, that and the provisions requiring a 6106 permit to carry concealed before you can carry open in Philadelphia.

Finally, the whole plead out the "bad guys" while going after travellers is, simply put, a myth. Philadelphia is (and has always been) rabid about going after firearms -- whether owned by "bad guys" or normal folks. If you're nailed for carrying without a license in Philadelphia, you're going to get slapped around by the DA's office, hard.

[LittleRedToyota]

welcome to PAFOA rule10b5!

i was hoping you would make your way here eventually.

[Rule10b5]

welcome to PAFOA rule10b5!

i was hoping you would make your way here eventually.

Thanks -- Dan convinced me, even though a bunch of the GT guys had been pestering me

Looks like a great site, and much more focused on the relevant stuff for all of us. Don't get me wrong, I still like to bs about guns in general, I'd just rather do it in the context of Pa. if I can.

[dgg9]

welcome to PAFOA rule10b5!

i was hoping you would make your way here eventually.

Major +1 on that greetings, too.

Will you be at VFCC this weekend?

[Rule10b5]

Major +1 on that greetings, too.

Will you be at VFCC this weekend?

Yup, probably Friday. I'm trying to avoid the mob scene. You?

[dgg9]

Yup, probably Friday. I'm trying to avoid the mob scene. You?

Saturday. I'm breaking in a new shooter by bringing him to his first-ever gun show, so IMO the crowds, the stench, and the masses of BDU/camo wearers is all part of the first time experience.

[khanfam6]

PA's first "shall issue" law was passed in 1989 or so (IIRC), and it contained a specific and intentional exemption that allowed the PPD Chief to decline to issue a permit based lack of need. In effect, the entire state was "shall issue" except for Philadelphia county.

In 1995, the UFA was amended, and Philadelphia lost its exemption, and became shall issue. There was, again, IIRC, a lawsuit that Philadelphia brought to declare the amendment invalid on "home rule" or "city of the first class" grounds. I forget the specifics. I don't recall anything about the National Guard, though. The lawsuit was the extent of the show down as far as I know. If you heard anything about the NG, it was probably just political posing by the Gov.

Similarly, Philadelphia was never able to "ignore" the permits issued throughout the rest of the state between 1989-1995. All permits are "state" permits even though they are issued at the county level. If you had a Chester issued permit, you could carry in Philadelphia then, just like you can now.

The 1989-1995 period was what gave rise to the whole internet/urban myth that you can't carry in Philadelphia, or that they'll arrest you for carrying, etc. Well, that and the provisions requiring a 6106 permit to carry concealed before you can carry open in Philadelphia.

Finally, the whole plead out the "bad guys" while going after travellers is, simply put, a myth. Philadelphia is (and has always been) rabid about going after firearms -- whether owned by "bad guys" or normal folks. If you're nailed for carrying without a license in Philadelphia, you're going to get slapped around by the DA's office, hard.

Hate to dissapoint you,but VUFA enforcement here is a joke. Go to 'Gun Court';plead out,get probation,back to the hood you go. Kept me employed for almost 6 years. None of the POS ever got more than 24 months for 1st offense.

[hkranz]

Just recently, I've received my permit to carry from the Phila. Police Dept. It took 12 weeks after submitting the application. I was photographed again. Otherwise. the people there are quite civil and obliging. The permit is good for five years.