Thinking About Challenging Police Check

[Sneaky Pirate]

Yeah, me too back when I was a young man. It sounded all cool and suave in my head, but it came out as something like "I like booger flavored ice cream".

Ahahah.. yeah, I've sounded dumb all my life- now that I have self respect, I can just say dumb shit and not care what their reaction is... actually works sometimes, people dig confidence.

[Sneaky Pirate]

I will clarify what the OP is talking about.

http://sheriff.montcopa.org/sheriff/...,3,q,41609.asp

Number "2" and "3" are NOT legal requirements. Also, the last sentence on the page that says: "Applications cannot be processed unless all of the above requirements are met." Which basically means, "No police check, no LTCF". Same goes for the references.

I have currently been E-mailing back and forth with the Montgomery County Sheriff's Department on this issue. I actually have heard from the Sheriff herself. Sheriff Behr. She in contacting her solicitor in order to review the process. Based on the verbiage that they used in their E-mail responses, I do not sense any sort of conspiracy to keep people from getting an LCTF. It's just an issue of them not really following the UFA... at all. I can post E-mails about this if requested, but it will be long.

Well, if you wouldn't mind, that would be nice to see. At least to know that they're actually doing something about it. Maybe the system would get revised before my birthday.

[Shadowline]

The law states the police are to conduct the investigation, so the major sticking point for most people is Montco's requirement that the citizen request the police check for the sheriff. I can fully understand the logic behind a challenge, but it was also very simple and quick. In the end, it's just not a big enough issue to pique my interest. If you feel strongly about it though, you have my support. Good luck with it!

[Remington788]

Hey all,

I'm interested in applying for my LTCF without going through the police check card. I've seen people talking about it before, and while to my knowledge they never do, I'm thinking about doing it. I've seen multiple people offer to go with the person and offer legal/moral support in it, and I think that I'd be interested in challenging it.

Regardless, does anyone have any advice or suggestions? Thanks for the help in advance.

You are welcome to go to Norristown with your LTCF application filled out and hand it to the guys at the Special Services Unit. They will tell you very politely that you need to get a police check card signed by your local PD. They will hand you a copy of the card and even tell you where your local PD office is. I saw it happen while I was there. The deputies were perfectly nice about it and the applicant did not argue, but it was clear that the guys was not getting a license without the card.

My other observation is that the people that are most vocal opponents of the process are generally not residents of Montco.

Getting the local PD card did not delay me in any way from getting my LTCF in the timeframe I had planned (since for me the most time consuming part would be getting into Norristown during business hours).

[OldSchoolPC]

Since a forum member requested that I post this, here is the E-mail correspondence to date. These are in reverse chronological order, by default:

Subject:
RE: Sheriff's Questions
From:
<support@oldschoolpc.net> (Remove Preferred Sender)
Date: Thu, Apr 05, 2012 6:06 pm
To: "Behr, Eileen Whalon" <EBehr@montcopa.org>

Thank you for your E-mail Sheriff Behr. I very much appreciate your time in this matter. I am glad to hear that this is an issue that you are personally looking into. I hope that when I submit my application, that the process will be smooth. I also hope that the process will be smooth for other applicants in the future. I have a very simple suggestion as to the matter that I believe will be beneficial to both applicant, and the Sheriff's Department. Instead of stating that you "require" XYZ information, simply state that you "strongly suggest" that such information is provided to help "expedite" the process. Advise potential applicants that by providing such information, they can "potentially" receive their license much quicker. If they do not, it may delay the processing up to the full 45 days allowed. In this way, the burden on the Sheriff's Office is lighter to all those who choose to provide the information that I previously objected to. For those that do not, the Sheriff's Office still has a full 45 days to do the investigation. This information can be displayed on the Sheriff's Office website, and in the Sheriff's Office. Once again, I very much appreciate your personal involvement in this matter.

P.S. Items "2" and "3" on the following hyperlink I feel should be changed to "we suggest" type dialogue. Also, perhaps remove the "cannot be processed" sentence as well. Thank you kindly, Sheriff Behr.
http://sheriff.montcopa.org/sheriff/...av,|34342|.asp

- Mr. Dennison

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Sheriff's Questions
From: "Behr, Eileen Whalon" <EBehr@montcopa.org>
Date: Thu, April 05, 2012 4:18 pm
To: <support@oldschoolpc.net>

Mr / Ms Dennison,
I am in receipt of your message. I appreciate your concerns and questions.
I am reviewing our policy with our solicitor.

In reference to some concerns:
PSP Form -
There is nothing wrong with the PSP form that requests information on references. That information is helpful in doing the investigation required by the Sheriff.
PSP advised that it is up to the Sheriff to require the information.
Not having the information may delay our investigation and delay acquiring the permit.

The Police Card –
This is a reasonable way for our office to conduct your investigation. This is a means to ask the applicant to help expedite the investigation and issue the
permit in a short time period. If our office has to do investigations on every permit application, it will delay issuance of the permits.
The Police check allows us to expedite the process. We will not issue the permit without an investigation, which may take several days.
We have up to 45 days to complete the investigations.
When an applicant comes to the office with the police card, in most cases, we are able to issue a card in a shirt time period that day.
You may submit your application and we will determine if there is enough information to process your Application.

Note: I do apologize for the opening of this letter, but I had only the name "Dennison" and was not sure if I should use "Mr" or "Ms" -
again I do apologize.

Sheriff Behr

Sheriff Eileen Whalon Behr
Montgomery County
Courthouse - 1st Floor · P.O. Box 311
Norristown, PA 19404-0311
Phone: 610-278-3337 · Fax: 610-278-3832
Email: ebehr@montcopa.org
http://sheriff.montcopa.org


\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Subject:
RE: LTCF Appication
From:
<support@oldschoolpc.net> (Remove Preferred Sender)
Date: Tue, Apr 03, 2012 6:03 pm
To: "SheriffOffice" <sheriffoffice@montcopa.org>

I thank the Montgomery County Sheriff's office for it's time in responding to my E-mail. Thank you for clarifying my ignorance as to the $1 fee. As for the police check sheet, nowhere in the UFA does it mention that the applicant must furnish such information from local police to the sheriff's office. The sheriff's office, can/may/should investigate. However, that does not mean that an applicant has to go to their local police station (or state police). If you look at 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (c), it clearly says: The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section." Requiring an additional piece of paper is not in accordance with the UFA. Furthermore, nowhere in the UFA does it state that an application can be denied for failing to offer references. It is not the responsibility of the applicant to "prove" that they are a responsible person. Our fine state is a "shall issue" state, not a "may issue" state in regards to LTCF. "A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license." Neither the sheriff's department policies/procedures, nor local or state police police/procedures, can supersede the law. I do acknowledge, that the form prescribed by the PA State Police must be used as mentioned in the UFA. However, that does not mean that the 2 references are truly required. It was errant on the State Police to have that included, or otherwise for the Sheriff's Office to interpret it's inclusion as "required". While I do have character and job references that could be used, I prefer not to give out anybody else's information, which is my prerogative. Let's assume the following:

1. I completely fill out the LTCF application. (minus the references)
2. I do not fill out "local police check"
3. I pass the PICS test and/or other criminal background test
4. No significant cause is found against me such as being a danger to myself or others.

Assuming those things, am I to understand that the Montgomery County Sheriff's office with either deny, or otherwise not process my application?

- Dennison


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: LTCF Appication
From: "SheriffOffice" <sheriffoffice@montcopa.org>
Date: Tue, April 03, 2012 4:29 pm
To: "Old School PC Services" <support@oldschoolpc.net>

Attached is the most up-to-date application form, which was provided to us by the Pennsylvania State Police. You will note that it requires two references. This form appears on our website and is distributed by our office.

The additional $1.00 is the Validation Surcharge enacted by the Pennsylvania Legislature under Act 66 of 2005. You will find this provision here:

18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (h)(3)
(3) An additional fee of $1 shall be paid by the applicant for a license to carry a firearm and shall be remitted by the sheriff to the Firearms License Validation System Account, which is hereby established as a special restricted receipt account within the General Fund of the State Treasury. The account shall be used for purposes under subsection (l). Moneys credited to the account and any investment income accrued are hereby appropriated on a continuing basis to the Pennsylvania State Police.
Finally, the local police check (this form is also attached) is required by our office as part of the investigation we conduct under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (d). This form is to be filled out by the applicant's local police department or by the Pennsylvania State Police if the applicant's municipality does not have a police department.

-- Jim
From: Old School PC Services [mailto:support@oldschoolpc.net]
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 6:40 AM
To: SheriffOffice
Subject: LTCF Appication



I interested in acquiring an LTCF, however it appears that the Montgomery County Sheriff's department form is illegal. If you read the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms act, it expressly details everything related to how sheriff's departments must process applications. Requiring the following information is illegal.

Requiring a fee over $19 (you charge $20)
Requiring 2 references
Requiring a local police check

Below is some portions of the UFA. Therefore, I would like to submit a legal LTCF application. Can you supply me with one to be filled out?

- Dennison





18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (c)
(c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police.



(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall:
(1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal conviction;
(2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
(3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
(4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and
(5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms), receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record the date and number on the application.





(e) Issuance of license.--
(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license.




(3) The license to carry a firearm shall be designed to be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be in a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The license shall bear the following:




(g) Grant or denial of license.--Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application. If the sheriff refuses to issue a license, the sheriff shall notify the applicant in writing of the refusal and the specific reasons. The notice shall be sent by certified mail to the applicant at the address set forth in the application.
(h) Fee.--
(1) In addition to fees described in paragraphs (2)(ii) and (3), the fee for a license to carry a firearm is $19. This includes all of the following:
(i) A renewal notice processing fee of $1.50.
(ii) An administrative fee of $5 under section 14(2) of the act of July 6, 1984 (P.L. 614, No. 127), [FN2] known as the Sheriff Fee Act.

[JHKolb]

Maybe I am missing something, but what is really the issue here? Are people so impatient to have their Local PD do the card check? Did you do something wrong that would prohibit getting the card and are trying to get the permit by other means?

I downloaded all the paper work and printed it out. Dropped the sheet off at my local PD, no questions asked. Picked it up a few days later, drove it right over to the Sheriffs Office and had my permit in hand in less than a half-hour.

If you (OP) are not even 21 yet, what is the rush? Get the paper work all completed and ready to go, drop it off a day or 2 before your birthday at your local PD, maybe strike up a nice conversation with the desk jockey so they remember you as a good guy and you 'should' be on your way without issue.

Slow down, take a breath, and let the system work for you. After all, you could live in NJ and NEVER get a carry permit!

[ByblosHex]

The system? The problem?

The problem is that this is not the system. The problem is that the Sheriff's Department is in violation of state law and is not being held accountable. Be grateful we're not in NJ? Is that your understanding of "The right of the citizens to bear arms shall not be questioned?" It isn't a question of patience or being better than NJ, it's a question of a Sheriff's department ignoring the law and not being held accountable.

[bigdawgbeav]

I'm glad Sheriff Behr cleared things up, but it's still not right.

[bac0nfat]

Just playing devils advocate here, but is it possible that they use 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109(d) to justify the police check card?

(d) Sheriff to conduct investigation.--The sheriff to whom the application is made shall:
(1) investigate the applicant's record of criminal conviction;
(2) investigate whether or not the applicant is under indictment for or has ever been convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment exceeding one year;
(3) investigate whether the applicant's character and reputation are such that the applicant will not be likely to act in a manner dangerous to public safety;
(4) investigate whether the applicant would be precluded from receiving a license under subsection (e)(1) or section 6105(h) (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms); and
(5) conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111 (relating to sale or transfer of firearms), receive a unique approval number for that inquiry and record the date and number on the application.

They could argue that it is just part of the investigation process, right?

[ByblosHex]

Just playing devils advocate here, but is it possible that they use 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109(d) to justify the police check card?

They could argue that it is just part of the investigation process, right?

No, because the Police Check card is a requirement of the applicant, not the Sheriff. The Sheriff's Department is not filling out the card, the applicant is. Additionally it specifically states 'conduct a criminal background, juvenile delinquency and mental health check following the procedures set forth in section 6111'. I don't know about you, but I never had to fill out a police check card when purchasing a firearm.