Thoughts on US Concealed Carry for Utah Class Requirement

[Argentum]

I'm not generally one to comment good or bad on stores and services unless I've had a really outstanding or really abysmal experience. Since I had a great experience, I wanted to drop a note about US Concealed Carry that holds education classes that fulfill the requirements for the Utah and Arizona non-resident carry licenses. I've been considering getting my Utah permit for awhile now so I can carry in Ohio where I have a lot of family. Back in February, I saw a flyer on the board from US Concealed Carry at my club advertising for a class the fulfilled both the Utah and Arizona education requirements. The flyer looked a little cheesy (logo banner has smoking bullet holes), but I guess it was good advertising since it caught my attention. I signed up because the class was local and I could actually make it. A few friends also went with me after I passed the word around.

I'm very glad that I took this class from this organization. The first positive thing is that my call that went to voicemail to register was returned the same day, on a Saturday nonetheless! I also used their website to ask a follow-up question about the Arizona education requirement and got a response the next day as well. My friends that registered all had similar experiences. I also received a phone call two days before reminding me that I had signed up for the class. The class itself was also great from my perspective. I don't really have much experience with training classes for firearms licensing and rules exposition, but I've sat through more than my fair share of third-party-mandated training in my professional life done by instructors who just regurgitated the required material that was painful to listen to. The instructor was Jason Greenberg who I believe is the owner/co-owner of the organization. He did a good job covering the safety training which is always good to re-hear and he also was good at making a lot of very boring but required material such as Utah laws on firearms carrying tolerable and included explanations about how and where Pennsylvania law differed. The firearms training component he used was as a video on combat accuracy from Personal Defense Network which was interesting and gave me some ideas to try on my next trip to the pistol range.

The other thing that made the experience one that I wanted to share was the actual license requirements and paperwork process. When you paid your registration fee ($85), you received an addressed envelope for Utah and Arizona each with all of the paperwork necessary to apply inside. For an additional reasonable fee ($5) they took and printed on-site a set of passport photos. They also, for a fee ($10 for two cards, $20 for four if you were getting both AZ and UT), fingerprinted you. Finally, they also would photocopy your drivers license and PA LTCF for free, although I didn't avail myself of that. At the end of the class, the instructor walked everyone through the Utah application since Utah is apparently "very picky" about how the form is filled out. He also stayed around afterwards and answered dozens of questions about how to fill out the Arizona app, the fingerprint card, and any of the other paperwork. They also sold a copy of Self-Defense Laws of All 50 States for $20 which I'm kicking myself now for not buying since that was 33% off the Amazon price.

Anyway, I thought class was professionally delivered and very well run and would recommend one of their classes to anyone who wants a Utah or Arizona permit. The class ran a little longer than the advertised four hours, but I suspect that was because there was at least 75 people in the class and the logistics of the registration and paperwork just took more time than usual. The instructor mentioned this was a much larger class than they normally held. Their website is http://concealedcarryus.com/.

(Note: Wasn't entirely sure where to post this so I put it here after some though because it didn't seem to fit in the subcategories for "Where to Spend Money". Mods, please feel free to move if it's in the wrong place.)

[gbrown221]

Did you do live fire with this class? AZ requires live fire. the only exception is if you waited until your Utah permit arrives. You could then submit a copy of your Utah permit as Arizona will except a copy of any states permit that required training regardless if that state required live fire but if your applying directly for an AZ permit you need to have completed live fire. The AZ statute explicitly states that the applicant

"demonstrates proficiency with a firearm"

[soberbyker]

Did you do live fire with this class? Az requires live fire. the only exception is if you waited until your Utah permit arrives. You could then submit a copy of your Utah permit as Arizona will except a copy of any states permit that required training regardless if that state required live fire but if your applying directly for an AZ permit you need to have completed live fire. The AZ statute explicitly states that the applicant

"demonstrates proficiency with a firearm"

I don't have, nor do I intend on getting AZ, but I have read on this forum that folks have gotten AZ by simply providing a photo copy of the PA hunter safety card, which, as you may or may not know, does not include live fire.

.

[gbrown221]

I don't have, nor do I intend on getting AZ, but I have read on this forum that folks have gotten AZ by simply providing a photo copy of the PA hunter safety card, which, as you may or may not know, does not include live fire.

.

Florida does the same thing stating hunter safety is accepted but if your read the AZ statute you still must demonstrate proficiency with a firearm. I am not an lawayer so I am unsure wthat the ramifications would be if an individual merely submits a hunter safety certificate to a state such as AZ and that agency issues them a permit and it is questioned later. (eg if someone is involved in shooting, police encounter, etc and are relying on the permit that was issued.) I know that both FL and AZ requires instructors to maintain records of individual student attendance and completion of class.

[soberbyker]

Florida does the same thing stating hunter safety is accepted but if your read the AZ statute you still must demonstrate proficiency with a firearm. I am not an lawayer so I am unsure wthat the ramifications would be if an individual merely submits a hunter safety certificate to a state such as AZ and that agency issues them a permit and it is questioned later. (eg if someone is involved in shooting, police encounter, etc and are relying on the permit that was issued.) I know that both FL and AZ requires instructors to maintain records of individual student attendance and completion of class.

Not questioning what you said, just offering what I've read.

.

[gbrown221]

Not questioning what you said, just offering what I've read.

.

all good my friend :-)

[Argentum]

Actually, my aforementioned e-mail question was actually about the Arizona training requirement because I too had read that the training requirement was 8 hours (the class was 4) and required a live-fire component. The response was that the requirement changed in 2012 and the class, since it was taught by an NRA-qualified instructor, was accepted as sufficient. The current Arizona Revised Statute seems to bear that out as I read it with what I was told in mind. The URL is http://www.azdps.gov/Links/ARS/?l=13/03112.htm.

Specifically:

E. The department of public safety shall issue a permit to an applicant who meets all of the following conditions:

[... omitted ...]

6. Has ever demonstrated competence with a firearm as prescribed by subsection N of this section and provides adequate documentation that the person has satisfactorily completed a training program or demonstrated competence with a firearm in any state or political subdivision in the United States. For the purposes of this paragraph, "adequate documentation" means:

(a) A current or expired permit issued by the department of public safety pursuant to this section.

(b) An original or copy of a certificate, card or document that shows the applicant has ever completed any course or class prescribed by subsection N of this section or an affidavit from the instructor, school, club or organization that conducted or taught the course or class attesting to the applicant's completion of the course or class.

(c) An original or a copy of a United States department of defense form 214 (DD-214) indicating an honorable discharge or general discharge under honorable conditions, a certificate of completion of basic training or any other document demonstrating proof of the applicant's current or former service in the United States armed forces as prescribed by subsection N, paragraph 5 of this section.

(d) An original or a copy of a concealed weapon, firearm or handgun permit or a license as prescribed by subsection N, paragraph 6 of this section.

and section N says:

N. An applicant shall demonstrate competence with a firearm through any of the following:

1. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class that is available to the general public, that is offered by a law enforcement agency, a junior college, a college or a private or public institution, academy, organization or firearms training school and that is approved by the department of public safety or that uses instructors who are certified by the national rifle association.

2. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Arizona game and fish department or a similar agency of another state.

3. Completion of any national rifle association firearms safety or training course.

[... remainder of the section omitted ...]

So it seems as of this class will quality you for the Arizona permit since it was taught by an NRA instructor and had a safety training which sounds like it would meet the qualification as stated in N1 . My certificate of completion lists the instructor's Utah BCI and NRA certification numbers. I haven't filed yet for an AZ permit, primarily due to cost and the likelihood of me going to Kansas, Nevada, or New Mexico being near zero. I haven't decided if I want to spend the $60 just for the sake of having it. However two of the friends with me already mailed their apps so I'll find out if they get rejected on the basis of this class being the education requirement. The statute also sounds like the PA Hunter Safety Course qualifies as well.

Sounds like it's much easier to get an AZ permit now, maybe? I'm far from an expert on these matters though. Maybe I should just do it now in case it changes later . I'll follow-up if I hear of my friends getting rejected.

[gbrown221]

Actually, my aforementioned e-mail question was actually about the Arizona training requirement because I too had read that the training requirement was 8 hours (the class was 4) and required a live-fire component. The response was that the requirement changed in 2012 and the class, since it was taught by an NRA-qualified instructor, was accepted as sufficient. The current Arizona Revised Statute seems to bear that out as I read it with what I was told in mind. The URL is http://www.azdps.gov/Links/ARS/?l=13/03112.htm.

Specifically:


and section N says:

So it seems as of this class will quality you for the Arizona permit since it was taught by an NRA instructor and had a safety training which sounds like it would meet the qualification as stated in N1 . My certificate of completion lists the instructor's Utah BCI and NRA certification numbers. I haven't filed yet for an AZ permit, primarily due to cost and the likelihood of me going to Kansas, Nevada, or New Mexico being near zero. I haven't decided if I want to spend the $60 just for the sake of having it. However two of the friends with me already mailed their apps so I'll find out if they get rejected on the basis of this class being the education requirement. The statute also sounds like the PA Hunter Safety Course qualifies as well.

Sounds like it's much easier to get an AZ permit now, maybe? I'm far from an expert on these matters though. Maybe I should just do it now in case it changes later . I'll follow-up if I hear of my friends getting rejected.

It appears the wording of the statute has been revised in 2012. I have emailed the bureau chief of AZ Department of Public Safety for clarification. When I get a response I will be happy to share what I receive. If live fire is no longer required it would be much easier to offer more UT/AZ combined style classes because it would eliminate the logistical issue of having to shoot.

[Argentum]

It appears the wording of the statute has been revised in 2012. I have emailed the bureau chief of AZ Department of Public Safety for clarification. When I get a response I will be happy to share what I receive. If live fire is no longer required it would be much easier to offer more UT/AZ combined style classes because it would eliminate the logistical issue of having to shoot.

Please do, I'm very curious about this now. Thanks for all the thoughts on this topic. I don't want to apply if there's any uncertainty about the proper training, should I actually decide to pony up the $60 just for "more".

If it does all work out, seems that's a good point in US Concealed Carry's favor - they're up on all the latest law minutiae.

[gbrown221]

Please do, I'm very curious about this now. Thanks for all the thoughts on this topic. I don't want to apply if there's any uncertainty about the proper training, should I actually decide to pony up the $60 just for "more".

If it does all work out, seems that's a good point in US Concealed Carry's favor - they're up on all the latest law minutiae.

AZ statute states demonstrates proficiency with a firearm. I have always been of the position that it is hard to demonstrate proficiency with a firearm if you don't shoot one in your training.

Another prime example of the legistlatures not think out everything before drafting and wording the requirements.

On a different note.

AZ statute clearly has a provision for you to apply after you receive your UT license. You merely send them a copy of your UT license upon receipt of it. AZ statute provides for the issuance of an AZ permit if you submit a copy of permit that required training to obtain it regardless if that state required live fire.