It finally comes to an end - "Offer of Judgment" reached with Philadelphia

[BimmerJon]

Mark,

Don't take it the wrong way. I very much appreciate your efforts. You took it plenty further than I ever could with my lifestyle an time.

I appreciate the time, stress and effort you put forth. Don't let me frustration get in the way of my appeciation.

As far as "not in it for the money", why not? Cases like these mist result in extreme outcomes. Either the offenders are fired and jailed or you wins millions. I'm well aware where the money ccones from, but outcomes such as those REALLY leave a lasting impression.

The added training, documentation and internal PPD communication will only reach and sink into the minds of the cops that already are the good guys....

The others will remain uneffected.. Maybe even a little pissed off and with added grudges.

Thanks for your efforts, just not satisfied with the results

[BimmerJon]

Posted frOm phone... Not correcting errors

[craigc]

Congrats and thank you

[ChamberedRound]

I've updated the top post. Please go to post number one in this thread for more details.

FWIW, after reading Mark's update, I stand by my earlier comments.

My only comment on the settlement is this: As Philly was completely uninterested in addressing the cause of the lawsuit in the settlement and felt they were doing enough through existing processes, you had no choice but to accept the one remedy they were offering. The decision about how acceptable that offer was sits with you at the end of the day. As you felt it was sufficient given the totality of circumstances (and undoubtedly with the advice of counsel), I can't criticize your decision.

You don't owe anyone on this forum an apology for settling, and anyone who thinks you do can do something biologically impossible.

While I don't believe he owes anyone an apology for anything, I do believe respectful criticism should be welcomed, or at least heard. Let's not forget that Mark solicited donations for his effort that many people here were glad to give at the time:

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...sponsible.html

By taking money from some of the forum's users, I believe that holds him accountable to a small degree to the forum at large, and to a larger degree to those that actually gave him the money, because those people became his benefactors.

Gun rights violated = $25,000
Forcing better leo awareness/training = Priceless

You should be proud of yourself for making better awareness/training a major issue.

I am not in the know, and Mark is, so if he believes awareness has been raised within the PPD, than I will accept that. But from where I'm sitting, the PPD got off extremely easy on this one, and I have concerns it will happen again, because they know it won't even cost them an officer's salary to weasel out of it.

On what sad day exactly did posting statements others may disagree with become 'trolling'?

Anyways, +Rep inbound.

I just wanted to make sure that no one thought I was using my position as admin to shit-stir, and that my statements didn't come off with a "WTF you asshole!" style attitude.

Viper specifically said in his post that Philly would accept no non-financial stipulations in the settlement, and that his only outcome in court would have been monetary damages. Given that, there's absolutely no way he could have achieved through this lawsuit what people here want him to achieve. If he's not after money and the non-monetary outcomes all of us were hoping to see couldn't materialize, what was the point of continuing the suit?

While I would've liked to see actual punishment of some kind meted out the officers and their command within the PPD, I understand that was beyond Mark's control. However, if that was indeed the case, and monetary damages were the only thing that could be used to teach them a lesson, then brother, I would've nailed their ass to the wall, especially with the open-and-shut, slam-dunk case, complete with the audio recording that you had. I don't know what value you should've asked for, but I do know I wouldn't have been content with my rights being bought and paid for at a price of $25k.

At the end of the day, I don't know if I could've done the same as Mark, and for that I give him the utmost respect and admiration for taking this as far as he did. Hell, I don't even know if I would've had the wherewithal to carry a recorder. Furthermore, I admit that FNG has a point that none of us but Mark were in this position, and all of this, including my comments, could just be a lot of hot air and Monday morning quarterbacking. I respect that point and don't really have a retort, other than to say that the way this was resolved just doesn't feel right. It feels cheap and sleazy.

Again, take it FWIW.

[Sandcut]

Well, as one of the few folks here who initially thought that you were intentionally trying to call down the thunder on yourself, I have to admit, I have to applaud your efforts thus far and any changes that have resulted from it. IMO, any forward progress is beneficial.

As far as some folks being disgruntled about the settlement, well...I imagine that there would still be folks here that would be unsatisfied if the SCOTUS ruled that every member of PPD had to personally sign a written apology, in blood, on gilded parchment that was hand delivered by the mayor just before he was publicly beheaded. It was a civil case. The preferred results weren't even on the a la carte menu.

With regards to the settlement, I'm sure that that was a tough decision. I imagine that the potentiality of staring down the barrel [sic] of the court ruling against you and you being responsible for court costs and attorney fees must have been pretty horrifying. Compound that with the fact that the court ruling in your favor was in no way guaranteed. Many folks naively forget about the rule of unintended consequences and fail to factor that into their risk calculation. This was my concern with some of your escapades from the beginning.

Sometimes good enough is good enough.

Coffee's on me if ever we meet.

[cgbudde]

My only comment on the settlement is this: As Philly was completely uninterested in addressing the cause of the lawsuit in the settlement and felt they were doing enough through existing processes, you had no choice but to accept the one remedy they were offering. The decision about how acceptable that offer was sits with you at the end of the day. As you felt it was sufficient given the totality of circumstances (and undoubtedly with the advice of counsel), I can't criticize your decision.

Beyond that, let me respond to the part I quoted above. To hell with what anyone else -- including me! -- thinks about the settlement. When it's their skin in the game, they can make the big decisions. It wasn't their skin in the game, it was yours. The legal system is no joke, and it's entirely too easy to get cavalier on a forum, safely ensconced in our barcaloungers, about what we want, what we would do, what we would say. You, however, had to live with the consequences of those events. All the people criticizing would do well to remember that.

You don't owe anyone on this forum an apology for settling, and anyone who thinks you do can do something biologically impossible.

Best response yet. Others are quick to say he didn't settle for enough money, but the lawsuit and settlement decision was his choice. Good job Mark. You did what you thought was best for you and the OC community.

[ViperGTS19801]

I can completely see where you're coming from, and I respect your opinion on it. I do think that, perhaps, you'd see it differently from this side of the fence.

[mythaeus]

Wow, I have to say I didn't expect that much criticism on the outcome.

Personally, I cannot imagine being in Mark's shoes from beginning to the end. While I know some of you hoped for a more severe outcome, there has been so much positive that came out of what Mark endured, all intangible. Not only he helped bring OC to front and center in Philly, he changed the PPD training, attitude, and conducts significantly. Is the PPD at best as it can be when it comes to OC? No, but it was a HUGE impact, including embolden more people to OC in Philly. Would it be better if a few cops lost jobs, went to jail, or the city get more financially punished? Maybe, maybe not. It may raise more animosity between the PPD and OCers, who knows? Who else in PA has gotten a significant amount of $ for right violation related to OC? I don't recall any other OC abuse resulted in that much money however small that is on the grand scheme of things. In the end what matters is that Mark changed OC in Philly for the better, more than anyone else ever did.

Mark, you had my support since the beginning and now as well. I'm glad I donated. Thank you for taking it as far as you did.

Al

[kimbershooter]

Congrats Mark, thank you for all you went through. Think you deserve much more but if you are happy with it, I am happy for you.

[FNG19]

While I don't believe he owes anyone an apology for anything, I do believe respectful criticism should be welcomed, or at least heard.

I'm going to leave the rest of the post unanswered, only because I think we've both summarized the opposite sides of the discussion. It doesn't need to be, er, litigated further than that. You got the last word!

On the quoted point, I want to make it clear that I wasn't trying to stifle criticism. I just didn't want the notion of Mark apologizing to anyone for the result to get any kind of traction, because I didn't feel he owed anyone an apology. An explanation? Sure, but not an apology. Criticism comes with the turf, and Mark's had more than his fair share.