Bernard Goetz - NYC Subway Shooter

[JohnUSCG]

I just got done watching a show on Bio Channel with an interview with Bernard Goetz who was the man who shot 4 teenagers on a NYC subway in 1984.

First off, let me say that I lived in NYC in 1989-1991 and it was a filthy and crime ridden hole of a place. I know that things are different now than they were back then. They are better. Maybe not perfect...but better.

Watching this interview with Mr. Goetz just astounded me. He is almost a certifiable nutjob. NOTHING he said during this interview made sense to me and his 'play by play' description of the events of that night were surreal. He did a walk-through of events with the interviewer (William Shatner) with an unloaded gun and pointed it at him and pulled the trigger several times. It was difficult to watch! This guy was almost certifiable.

This guy now lives alone (still in NYC) with his pet squirrels. Seriously. I am not kidding when I say I think he is (and was) certifiable. I am amazed at how much things have changed. This guy did EVERYTHING wrong....Shot people who he felt 'threatened' by but made no overt threatening gestures or displayed weapons. Once he shot them, he ran away. He eventually turned himself in in NH a few weeks later. Talk about a 'guilty mind'! Yet, despite all of this, he was aquitted of criminal charges. Very interesteing. He was considered a hero by many in the city at that time because he struck back against a threat. People were fed up with crime and he became a poster boy for defending yourself.

All I can say is that I hope things never regress back to that level of misery and despair. I hope that we have learned lessons (as gun owners or as those who believe in self defense) that will move us forward as a society and as a whole.

[Philadelphia]

I guess ultimately the jury at the time was persuaded that whatever he did and whatever he said (nutty or not), a bunch of thugs threatened him and he justifiably shot them. (I thought at least one of the gang had a screwdriver or something like that but I can't fully remember).

Thugs have been around from the dawn of man and likely will be to our sunset.

I sort of hope that in any case where a gang of thugs threaten some dude otherwise minding his own business and said dude ends up shooting all of them in fear for his life, not a whole lot of time and money is wasted prosecuting said dude.

[streaker69]

He was only acquitted on the charges of shooting the thugs, he served time for the weapon possession. For which he had made every effort before the shooting to legally carry a firearm in NYC, but was denied repeatedly.

That's why gun owners had rallied behind him, as an effort to show that someone was trying to work within the law to legally carry and was denied by the corrupt NYPD.

[JohnUSCG]

The story did relate that one of the thugs had a screwdriver in his pocket. It wasn't displayed or even known about until said thug was at the hospital.

If this case had happened today.....same exact circumstances and situation.....Bernard Goetz would be in jail for a very, VERY long time.

Like I had said, it is amazing to me how things have changed.

[Philbert]

The story did relate that one of the thugs had a screwdriver in his pocket. It wasn't displayed or even known about until said thug was at the hospital.

If this case had happened today.....same exact circumstances and situation.....Bernard Goetz would be in jail for a very, VERY long time.

Like I had said, it is amazing to me how things have changed.

I still don't quite get how he was acquitted, given the way he rambled to the cops (without a lawyer, of course).

http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/30/ny...ooded-way.html

Domian: Your, your intention was to shoot these people?

Goetz: My intention, at that instant, let me explain. When I saw what they intended for me, my intention was, was worse than shooting.

Domian: O.K., was it your intention to kill these people?

Goetz: My intention was to, to anything I could do to hurt them. My intention, you know, I know this sounds horrible, but my intention was to murder them, to hurt them, to make them suffer as much as possible. ...

Yikes. I guess people were just so tired of thugs running the streets that they sympathized with anyone who fought back.

[ByAnyMeans]

I agree that he did himself no favors by his statements to the police but the jury agreed that how he was set upon by these thugs were reasonable to fear for his safety. A weapon is not necessary to intimidate someone just a disparity of force which four to one will do.
A lot can also be said for body language and facial expressions, tone and inflection of voice, etc etc. You can say the same exact words but you change the above and it carries a whole different meaning.

To say if it happened again he would be in jail is unable to be proved so your really just guessing. In regards to him being "certifiable" I ask why that matters. I would say unless he meets the criteria for involuntary admission making himself dangerous to himself or others than his odd behaviour means nothing unless you believe only those who conform to your expected norms of society should be able to defend themselves.

[JohnUSCG]

To say if it happened again he would be in jail is unable to be proved so your really just guessing. In regards to him being "certifiable" I ask why that matters. I would say unless he meets the criteria for involuntary admission making himself dangerous to himself or others than his odd behaviour means nothing unless you believe only those who conform to your expected norms of society should be able to defend themselves.

No, it cannot be proven that he would be in jail if it happened today....just my opinion given the changed atmosphere of today's legal and social positions.

My opinion of his mental state apparently does not matter to a jury of his peers.....it was, again, my opinion of his demeanor, words, gestures at this time. Maybe he was less of a nut job back then. (I doubt it). Maybe he was off of his (extensive) meds before the interview I saw. One would just think that a sane and social person who has prevailed in a nationally publicized event like his would take a lesson from the past. Instead, he states that the greatest love he has ever felt in his life is the love he feels for his pet squirrel. Odd? I believe so. Do I believe he has every right granted by God to defend himself? I certainly do.

[FAL-SHOOTER]

I support Goetz 100%.

The media always demonizes anyone who fights back, except in movies where they make there money. So the Shatner program is no shock.

Furthermore this revisionist storyline that the dead or wounded were just some poor young kids that asked for change for the arcade is a fucking joke.

It would be laughable if it weren't so loathsome.

Some young thugs thought they saw an easy target so they tried to rob him.

Guess what..

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG.

My only complaint about Goetz is that he didn't have a firearm with a larger capacity.

Who cares if his personality doesn't fit into someone elses notion of what proper or responsible is.

Put yourself in his shoes for a minute, You're on your way home from work, you've been robbed and beaten up previously, so you carry a gun for protection.

You're sitting on the train not bothering anyone, when a group of punks start staring at you, sizeing you up,

You start getting tense knowing that something is most likely going to happen, they approach you, ask you for money, they see you start getting wild eyed and on guard.

They start smiling,chuckling, thinking that you're just another bitch that can't defend himself.

You see the weapons that they are holding in there hands, You imagine what that piece of steel is going to do to you, where they will stab you, if you'll survive this, you imagine your last living feeling will be warm blood on your skin and someone digging through your pockets.

Then you remember that firearm in your pocket, you don't have to die today, if these punks wanna dance we'll dance motherfuckers!! You pull it out,there eyes are no longer threatening, the smiles on there faces are gone, replaced with the knowing blank stare that now the tables have turned.

I had an encounter a few years ago with some guys attempting to break into my hunting camp and steal my truck, They wouldn't listen to my warnings and I had them in my sights and was taking slack off the trigger, all that flashed through my head was, please don't make me kill you. but even that thought was drowned out by the thought of, My life is my fucking life and no punk motherfucker is gonna take me from my family without a fight.

[mollymayhem82]

I think it's hilarious that most of the scumbags who tried to rob him are now dead, and he's still alive and healthy. Those shitheads got what they deserved.

[JohnUSCG]

I think it's hilarious that most of the scumbags who tried to rob him are now dead, and he's still alive and healthy. Those shitheads got what they deserved.

Please don't misunderstand me.....I am 100% in favor of his defending himself. Apparently so was a jury who heard all the evidence and found him not guilty except for the weapons charge.

But make no mistake about it......this guy is strange with a capitol S. there was no "slant" given to the interview show. Just his words and actions and Shatner asking him questions about his feelings on the situation. No commentary that I recall at all. Just Bernard Goetz being a strange guy. That is what got me thinking that if those circumstances had happened today......I feel his freedom and criminal defense would have been in serious jeopardy.

For example, he was asked about how the event started. His reply was, "....these 4 kids were standing on all sides of me and one put his hand out and said 'give me $5'.....and he said it very softly, my reply was to quick draw my gun and shoot each of them.". He was very descriptive in where his shot placements were and whom was where and in what posture they were in when he shot them. He also told one of the kids "you look pretty good, here's another one" and proceeded to shot him again.
Hey.....I wasn't there.....I wasn't on the jury......but things are different today and I doubt he would have been acquitted by ANY jury.