Phila. Gun License Dept. Experience Today

[.45Kimber1911]

Hello Everyone...

I have been reading the board here for a few months now, but have never created an account until yesterday. I have to say that there is a lot of good advice here from what I have read so far.

Anyway... I just wanted to share a little about my experience today when I went to apply for my LTCF here in Philadelphia.

I got off the elevator on the second floor to find a bunch of people hanging out in the hallway for the "Gun Permit" department. There was no signage anywhere that indicated that you must sign in or take a number or any form of order of dealing with large volumes of people. So, I happened to ask one of the people in line if there was just a line or if you had to sign in and was told that there is a sign in sheet at the first window. I walk up to the window and ask the girl behind the counter where do I sign in at and she said with an attitude, "Right here, can't you see the sign?". I said yes I can see the sign, what I meant was where is the form that I need to sign in on. I guess you have some sort of clipboard or something? I then had the look of death from this woman who then just tossed a clipboard in front of me and said abruptly "HERE".

I was told to wait until I was called. After about 15-20 minutes, I was called to the front counter and told to take a seat in one the the little cubicles and wait. A minute or two passes and a woman introduces herself as Detective somebody or other and asks for my application and proof of residency. Handed her the paperwork that she requested. She then begins to open a file jacket with a blank PPA generated form stapled inside and begins filling out information from my application. She gets to the block where it asks for the applicant's social security number which I left blank because it says that it is optional, but will help identify the applicant more easily. She then proceeds to take a highlighter pen and underline the box and tells me that I must fill this in or my application can not be processed. I pointed to the small subscript that clearly reads that this information is optional. She then tells me that I don't have to write it down myself on the form, but she at least needs to hear it from me so she can write it down on her PPA form. Seeing that I need to get my PA LTCF for various reasons, I obliged and wrote in the information.

She then asks for my money order and photograph to attach to the file jacket which I handed to her. She then proceeds to tell me that she is going to ask me a series of questions, to which my response will determine my eligibility to obtain a "permit" to carry a concealed firearm. Meanwhile, I am looking at a sign posted on the wall that says "IF YOUR DRIVERS LICENSE IS SUSPENDED YOU MUST REAPPLY AFTER IT HAS BEEN REINSTATED". So, she proceeds to ask me questions that were basically similar to the ones on the application form to which I provided my answers to match. She then gets into a series of questions asking if I had any tattoos or scars and where they are located. I asked her why she needed to know this information as I do not see where it is applicable to my ability to carry a firearm. She told me they have to know this information so that they can identify me for whatever reason. Hmmmm... I told her that I have several tattoos. She said that they just need to know where they are located and that I do not have to show or describe them. Interesting way to identify someone huh? So I told her where they were because I basically have them on almost every limb and it doesn't make a difference to me if they know where they are located.

She then proceeds to ask me if I have ever been arrested for "anything what so ever in the past". Now I am originally from NJ and had a couple of DWI's years ago, but at the time they were considered moving violation in NJ when they occurred. I told her that I was never "arrested" to the best of my knowledge, but was detained and issued citations. She then tells me that she doesn't know what a DWI is because in PA they are called DUI. She then assumes that because in PA it can be construed as a criminal offense that I had to have been arrested for the offense in NJ and tells me that it will likely prevent me from obtaining a "permit". She then kept asking me what date that these occurred and I told her that it was more than 10 years for the first offense and a significant amount of time since the second. She demanded that I give her specific years to which I could not remember off the top of my head. After thinking for a while, I told her it was around 1995 for the first offense and 2005 for the second. She said that she needed to know exactly. I told her again that I simply don't remember the exact years.

After all the questions are answered, she tells me that my application can take anywhere from 4 to 6 to 8 or 10 weeks to process. I asked her why they continue to tell people this when the UFC specifically states that the agency "shall issue within 45 days if there is nothing in the background check that prevents issue? She told me that I must give them at least 45 days to conduct the background check and if I felt the need to obtain my "permit" sooner that I would need to come down there with my "driver's license" and pick it up.

I was then told to wait until called again to get my fingerprints taken. After a few minutes, I was finally called back to the finger printing station. After taking my prints, the woman at that station told me that I should receive written notification in 8 to 10 weeks. I then asked her why they tell people that because the UFC specifically states 45 days, not work days, to which I was told if I count actual work days, it comes out to a little over 8 weeks.

The detective that interviewed me happened to come around the corner and I asked her if she needed my reference documents that she failed to ask for during the interview. She said that I should have given them to her with my application and then took them from me to hand to another clerk to put in my file jacket.

The whole time I felt like I was being looked at like a criminal trying to get one over on them or something. I was a little offended from the start of things when I had the clipboard tossed at me to sing in, so that kinda set my tone for the rest of the experience. Being asked questions that has nothing to do with the state approved application and seeing signage that is mutually exclusive to what is required by the state to obtain a license really got under my skin as well. I am starting to think that because this detective is not familiar with NJ laws and my prior offenses, that this will cause them to generate a denial letter even though I a perfectly legal to purchase firearms. I am anticipating having to file an appeal for my application already due to the ignorance of these people and what is legal and not.

Anyone ever have to file an appeal and get it approved in Philadelphia?

Before anyone states telling me to just get a Florida, Virginia, or Utah license or permit, I have already filled out the applications and am waiting to submit them. I specifically need to get my PA LTCF because I live in Center City Philadelphia and am surrounded by schools everywhere. The federal firearms laws have established gun free school zones of 1000 feet from any school K-12 to which you need a state of residency license or permit in order to legally carry upon. The other reason I can not get a Utah permit is because you must have one from your resident state first before applying for an non-resident permit.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

[cakeshooter]

Wow. I don't have any advice...but just glad that we got ours this week in Bucks County instead of Philly!!!! We were in line behind someone else taking a long time to get a permit for something or other, but after that, my husband and I were both photographed and approved with no questions asked, and out the door with permit in hand in 30 minutes.

Amazing what a few miles does...yikes.

[IronSight]

Considering that they just clearly broke federal and state law you personally handled it better than I would have.

[soberbyker]

For what it's worth, it is possible to be eligible to purchase but not be for a LTCF.

I asked a lawyer familiar with gun laws "... are the requirements to buy a handgun and obtain an LTCF the same, if not how are they different?"

... the LTCF is harder, it includes all of the purchase requirements and adds the drug conviction and character /reputation provision. Might be a couple other differences ....

[whoshisface]

Would've have been better to come here before. You never had to give her your SS number, actually her insisting on it was illegal. I would file a complaint.

[PreserveandProtect]

Now is the time to write down the names of the people with whom you spoke and to jot as much as you can remember into a journal as record.

As for who violated what and the next step to getting your permit AND potentially filing a complaint or what not, others know more about that than I, so I'll leave it for them.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could've stopped the detective in the middle of her "investigation" and requested the DA to come by and file charges on your behalf?

Watching this thread with interest. Thanks for posting.

[350CI]

wow, but not surprised... and philly wonders why everyone jumps at the non-resident licenses

[red dog]

have you considered moving?

[350CI]

have you considered moving?

ditto, del co is right next door and transportation is great...

[.45Kimber1911]

I operate two home based businesses in Philadelphia which is my primary market area. Moving is not an option at this point because of the extra expense that it would cause would not be a justifiable expenditure.