I have started to look into the other side of the firearms industry

[Huskyoverlord]

I guess I'm just one of those guys who likes to go out and have fun and shoot. I did not relize the amount of standerdized tests and all the "triple crown master gunfighters badge" type things that were out there. I got nothing against the guys who prepare for a self defense encounter and appauld them , but one of the things I see is the delusion that training and preparing some how makes you a "gunfighter". IMHO the thing that makes you a "gunfighter" is suriving your first gun fight. There are no guaruntees in life and no matter what your training a guy with a bolt gun 300-400 yards out with minimal training could take you out , unless of course you take my "super secret uber ninja course" that allows you to vanish before a bullet impact.

I guess my problem is I don't know who half these people are , and it seems to me they have mastered doing one thing well and a standard of testing and training to score higher on the test. I sounds to me like staying in a comfort zone , and god forbid you encounter something that wasn't covered in your intensive training cycle.

I guess it's because the gun culture is so diverse that's why it's broken up into these little sub cultures from three gunners to those guy who shoot percussion rifles at a 1000 yards. I hate how people knock the shooting sports in favor of "combat training". I am not tom cruise nor do I work for the NSA so why would my shooting be anything other then a game or sport?

What are the legal implications of holding master combat ceritifactions? After a defensive shooting are you going to be looked at like a pyscho who went out searching for the best way to kill? I could say it would open a whole new host of legal problems the average person wouldn't get.

I don't understand the desire to model yourself after the police or military when most of their firearms and training where taken from sport shooting where lives aren't on the line but something more important is , money. Yes the shooting sports have specialized equipment but most allow you to play with off the shelf firearms and have divisions just for them. I don't understand how people say they have mastered a firearm because it is a life long quest to become as good as you possibly can. Is there anyone out there in the shooting world who can say they truely mastered shooting , they have won every accolade in every sport is completely well rounded. Top shot is an example of a good setup to torture shooters and see where people's marksmenship is at. Those stages have no pratical value but allow for the variety to weed out who needs a specialized firearms or can't use a wide range of weapons.

The shooting sports need to be supported and played for they are our best public face. Not saying "combat" trainers are wrong or invaild but should just take a backseat to the more family friendly shooting sports as the face of the gun industry. Things are changing because the firearms indusrty is using liberal/progressive tactics like shooting USA's piece on trapshooting where they had a wheelchair bound black man speaking up for how much fun he had and how great the other shooters where to him. That's the kind of PR we need. I fully understand that firearms are for offensive/defensive purposes and sporting goods equipment second but it seems we need to flip that perception to truely soildify the gun culture's hold on america again. A baseball bat can be used to bash someone's head in and in the right hands it's just as deadly and effective as a firearm. Let's get people to the point where a baseball bat is , a piece of sporting goods equipment that can kill someone if needed.

We live in the word games era ( I hate it more then the next guy ) and have to play along. I hear many pro gunners call semi auto rifles assault rifles and I have myself because of the media brainwashing. If you have an arsenal you are some reculsive doomsday gun nut , if you have a collection you are an upstanding member of soceity. If you are an arms dealer you help kill african children in bloody conflicts , if you are a propriter of fine firearms you most likely are a member of the chamber of commerce.

That was my rant for the week

[Mitch10mm]

Good read. I'd do the rep thing if I knew how. I'm 43 and growing up it was all about target shooting, clay birds with family and family friends. I was 11 years old reloading shotgun shells so I could shoot clays after school out back in the farmers field. The neighbors would smile and wave or come watch and talk. Imagine a kid doing that in this day. Peoples perceptions of gun owners seems skewed towards a wannabe Jason Bourne. Some gun owners do little to help that perception.

[Huskyoverlord]

Good read. I'd do the rep thing if I knew how. I'm 43 and growing up it was all about target shooting, clay birds with family and family friends. I was 11 years old reloading shotgun shells so I could shoot clays after school out back in the farmers field. The neighbors would smile and wave or come watch and talk. Imagine a kid doing that in this day. Peoples perceptions of gun owners seems skewed towards a wannabe Jason Bourne. Some gun owners do little to help that perception.

It is coming back , and there are the action shooting sports that are becoming more and more popular but scoffed at by "professionals". Dustin from season three of top shot was a shining example of what the face of shooting should be , happy fun loving guy with the love of the game and not some military/swat background. It's about fun for most of us and only a few need it for a job or depend on it daily basis. It's about winning points for our cause , most of the best shooters don't relize how hard it is for the rest of us and give there big ego's and down talk to us mere mortals which they are too but don't relize.

[arjohnson]

The way I look at the gun industry in general is, and that applys to all aspects of it. From the collectors, recreational shooters, guys who like to shoot the games or the guys who like to spend money on training, it's your money and do as you please and whatever makes you happy, at least we have those options for now.

Me I enjoy firearms period, weather I buy guns that I don't often shoot to the ones I do and the ones I carry daily.

As for the big ego guys, if it makes them happy then hey, have at it. But don't be fooled for one second thinking that no matter how much you shoot, practice, play games, train, etc, it's all done on a one way range for most of us.

[RXM]

I got nothing against the guys who prepare for a self defense encounter and appauld them , but one of the things I see is the delusion that training and preparing some how makes you a "gunfighter". IMHO the thing that makes you a "gunfighter" is suriving your first gun fight.

I think there is a huge flaw in your logic here. How can you increase your chances of survival in a gun fight if you don't train with your firearm or take appropriate courses for defensive shooting? If you're going into a situation where you're on equal footing as the person attacking you, that means you didn't prepare enough. So are you suggesting that someone who over prepares for a potential gun fight is a wannabe "gunfighter"? I can't recall the last time I ever heard someone refer to themselves as a gunfighter. Heck, I've never heard the term until you just dropped it here. According to your definition, I would qualify as a gunfighter.

There are no guaruntees in life and no matter what your training a guy with a bolt gun 300-400 yards out with minimal training could take you out , unless of course you take my "super secret uber ninja course" that allows you to vanish before a bullet impact.

I would like to know what course you're referring to that actually make that claim. So you're suggesting that people who carry a gun for defense shouldn't bother with training b/c at anytime, someone in a bell tower might decide to take us out? Sounds a little far fetched to me...

I guess my problem is I don't know who half these people are , and it seems to me they have mastered doing one thing well and a standard of testing and training to score higher on the test. I sounds to me like staying in a comfort zone , and god forbid you encounter something that wasn't covered in your intensive training cycle.

I would recommend that you do research on an instructor prior to taking one of their courses. The good ones will not hesitate to tell you their background and their experiences. It isn't their fault you don't know who they are - you should be doing your due diligence and finding out who they are prior to taking their courses. You expect an instructor to prepare you for every possible scenario within a 3 day course? Get real man. Your parents spend 18 years preparing your for the real world and you still have to learn throughout life.

I guess it's because the gun culture is so diverse that's why it's broken up into these little sub cultures from three gunners to those guy who shoot percussion rifles at a 1000 yards. I hate how people knock the shooting sports in favor of "combat training". I am not tom cruise nor do I work for the NSA so why would my shooting be anything other then a game or sport?

I have yet to come across any individuals that have bashed shooting sports over combat training. You're talking about two totally different things altogether.

What are the legal implications of holding master combat ceritifactions? After a defensive shooting are you going to be looked at like a pyscho who went out searching for the best way to kill? I could say it would open a whole new host of legal problems the average person wouldn't get.

So you think someone who purchases a gun and never bothered to train with it has better legal footing than someone who has trained with their weapon, demonstrated discipline, and has a certificate from a recognized training facility?

I don't understand the desire to model yourself after the police or military when most of their firearms and training where taken from sport shooting where lives aren't on the line but something more important is , money. Yes the shooting sports have specialized equipment but most allow you to play with off the shelf firearms and have divisions just for them. I don't understand how people say they have mastered a firearm because it is a life long quest to become as good as you possibly can. Is there anyone out there in the shooting world who can say they truely mastered shooting , they have won every accolade in every sport is completely well rounded. Top shot is an example of a good setup to torture shooters and see where people's marksmenship is at. Those stages have no pratical value but allow for the variety to weed out who needs a specialized firearms or can't use a wide range of weapons.

The shooting sports need to be supported and played for they are our best public face. Not saying "combat" trainers are wrong or invaild but should just take a backseat to the more family friendly shooting sports as the face of the gun industry. Things are changing because the firearms indusrty is using liberal/progressive tactics like shooting USA's piece on trapshooting where they had a wheelchair bound black man speaking up for how much fun he had and how great the other shooters where to him. That's the kind of PR we need. I fully understand that firearms are for offensive/defensive purposes and sporting goods equipment second but it seems we need to flip that perception to truely soildify the gun culture's hold on america again. A baseball bat can be used to bash someone's head in and in the right hands it's just as deadly and effective as a firearm. Let's get people to the point where a baseball bat is , a piece of sporting goods equipment that can kill someone if needed.

We live in the word games era ( I hate it more then the next guy ) and have to play along. I hear many pro gunners call semi auto rifles assault rifles and I have myself because of the media brainwashing. If you have an arsenal you are some reculsive doomsday gun nut , if you have a collection you are an upstanding member of soceity. If you are an arms dealer you help kill african children in bloody conflicts , if you are a propriter of fine firearms you most likely are a member of the chamber of commerce.

That was my rant for the week

I'm too tired to even respond to the rest of your post. Hopefully someone here is not so busy and can do the rest for me.

[Gun]

I fully understand that firearms are for offensive/defensive purposes and sporting goods equipment second but it seems we need to flip that perception to truely soildify the gun culture's hold on america again. A baseball bat can be used to bash someone's head in and in the right hands it's just as deadly and effective as a firearm. Let's get people to the point where a baseball bat is , a piece of sporting goods equipment that can kill someone if needed.

Your rant seems to center on this one premise. What evidence do you
have that states firearms, particularly rifles and shotguns are not for
sporting purposes, such as hunting and trap shooting, etc., foremost,
and how does this help take hold of america again?

Please remember that not everyone hunts, just because they might live
in PA, likewise, not everyone fishes, just because they might live next
to a lake, or the ocean.

Also, everyone knows that a baseball bat is effective as an instrument
of crime, as well as a hammer, or a kitchen knife, or a ...

[Posit]

[QUOTE=Huskyoverlord;1840396]
The shooting sports need to be supported and played for they are our best public face. QUOTE]

This is the crux of his diatribe-- and I fully agree. The super-combat-ready-at-a-seconds-notice-and-happy-to-demonstrate-I'm-not-to-be-f'ed-with types are usually wannabes who detract from the shooting sports and gun owners. They make the public nervous (rightly or wrongly) and create a negative perception of guns and gun owners. (If you don't think perception is all important, you need to rethink).

If your explanation for combat training and practice is to be prepared for the unexpected, that's OK with me. However, I would ask if you also train and practice for far more probable emergencies... skids resulting from front tire blow outs, engine fires, emergency first aid, hand to hand combat, etc ad infinitum. The fact is, for most of us, the 'need' for combat training is far less probable than any number of other emergency situations. To isolate an extremely low probablility type of possible emergency to justify training simply isn't logical.

If your explanation for combat training and practice is because you enjoy it, it makes you feel good, and consider it entertainment, then I'm with you. Go forth and have fun. There is even a remote possibility you will actually use/benefit from the training. Just don't BS me with half assed rationale.

[Gun]

The shooting sports need to be supported and played for they are our best public face.

The shooting sports need to be supported and played for they are our best public face. QUOTE]

This is the crux of his diatribe-- and I fully agree.

And again, do you have any evidence that the shooting sports
have taken a back seat to combat training by militia minded
folks?

When I say combat training, I'm not referring to basic handgun
training which includes self defense.

[echo5echo]

[QUOTE=Posit;1840794]

The shooting sports need to be supported and played for they are our best public face. QUOTE]

This is the crux of his diatribe-- and I fully agree. The super-combat-ready-at-a-seconds-notice-and-happy-to-demonstrate-I'm-not-to-be-f'ed-with types are usually wannabes who detract from the shooting sports and gun owners. They make the public nervous (rightly or wrongly) and create a negative perception of guns and gun owners. (If you don't think perception is all important, you need to rethink).

If your explanation for combat training and practice is to be prepared for the unexpected, that's OK with me. However, I would ask if you also train and practice for far more probable emergencies... skids resulting from front tire blow outs, engine fires, emergency first aid, hand to hand combat, etc ad infinitum. The fact is, for most of us, the 'need' for combat training is far less probable than any number of other emergency situations. To isolate an extremely low probablility type of possible emergency to justify training simply isn't logical.

If your explanation for combat training and practice is because you enjoy it, it makes you feel good, and consider it entertainment, then I'm with you. Go forth and have fun. There is even a remote possibility you will actually use/benefit from the training. Just don't BS me with half assed rationale.

Agreed, I know so many people that stockpile ammo for a SHTF situation, and then ask them where there first aid/medical kit is, and how much non perishables they have. You have the right to spend your money how you want, and I think high stress combat training is great. But if you take it just to say how great you are, I have no time for you. Take it because you want to be more disciplined, take it because you understand it may save your life or the life of a loved one.

[Huskyoverlord]

And again, do you have any evidence that the shooting sports
have taken a back seat to combat training by militia minded
folks?

When I say combat training, I'm not referring to basic handgun
training which includes self defense.

I guess looking at chuck taylor's website and him stating that "pratical shooting sports" will basicly get you killed. Playing them is not only wrong but will get you killed. I am looking to become an instructor and don't like the combat cowboy crap or the NRA 1000 hours of classroom and 2 hours on the range mentality. I was looking for something more in the middle , you know on the range instructing and having fun not deluding students into thinking the are ready for something you truely can't know until the aftermath. I am not saying training is bad or holding certificates is bad , but if you hold certificates like "uber combat master" I think it would look alittle bad for you in court. If you held weapon proficency certs it wouldn't be bad at all.

I guess I'm learning this is just like marital arts where you have about 10 "real" styles and about 100 real instructors and the rest is just BS that would get you killed. You have seem to misread or misunderstood my post because it wasn't a knock on training at all. I understand there are sports for every firearm under the sun and would like to see them grow and become more and more mainstream and I don't think talking about two to the chest one to the head to a 16 year old girl is the best way to go.

My vision is a little more basic. From most of these big name schools it seems like going from 0-60 and there is no way like you said to take a three or five day course and cram a lifetime of experince into it. To me shooting is a life long quest to reach the height of your personal ability.

There are sanctioned matches for everything from shooting percussion capped rifles at a 1000 yards to "run and gun" three gun matches. I talk to most shooters who have no idea how many and what sports are out there. You want to hear the ding of steel , see a clay bird blow up , focus your mind in the ultimate test of man and machine 1000 yard rifle shooting (F-class). I guess what bothers me is I will hear some "ultimate tactical" thing out of most gun owners mouth before I hear a sport.

Maybe I'm just banking on after nothing happens next year and people have armed themselves to the teeth let's get them into the sports so the gun culture grows and doesn't vanish like it did when I was coming into it. The AWB the demonazation of firearms comes from people having guns for only one purpose and that's for defense. What about the happy fluffy side of firearms the sporting and fun. I guess just because I missed out on what I love(USPSA) because of lack of knowlage that it even existed here , I thought it was only in the west and then when found out they were shooting USPSA in my area since the late 80's I felt like I lost a hell of a lot of time