K of P Mall - I won't go back without a CCW

[joseywales]

I was there tonight with my teens. I avoid the place, but the teens wanted one thing, so we went. Now, I grew up in DELCO, and have been in CHESTCO/MONTCO for over 10 years. So maybe I never noticed it at K of P mall, but tonight it was, well let's just say a crime "profiler" would have had his/her hands full. And you know what, after what I witnessed, I say profile away.

We were on our way out, headed toward Sears on the 2nd floor, when a fight between tow packs of animals broke out on the 1st floor. You know, like moths to a flame, it's weird how we rubber neck to see what's going on. Now, had I been with my founger kids, I would have just hauled ass outa there. But both my son and daughter can handle themselves and it wasn't too serious at first. Just two or four of them throwing haymakers. Then it got interesting.

The groups would break up, move a bit and start fighting again, gaining attention from a lot of us. As guards were swooping in, one pack was headed toward Sears. Some scuffles with the guards ensued and the pack did and about face and was headed toward the Rubys exit, which is the railing we were all leaning against.

An asian fellow standing next to me, why don't they just throw these animals out of here. The truth is, I don't think they could. They just aren't capable of handling this situation. It was like trying to herd rats into a pen. They just had no control. One LEO, who is stationed at the mall, finally made his way down and as he's walking over, a guard comes up to us as says, "We need you all to leave. We don't need any more people around here." The asian guy looks at me and says, "Is he kidding!" I thought you know what, the only people they can move out are the law abiding citizens.

Anyway, we didn't move because leaving at the that point would have put on on the heels of the pack and the guards, plus the LEOs now entering the mall. No thanks,we just stayed put. The guard just kept moving with like a 1,000 yard stare, as if he was mesmorized and...I don't know what to say. I realize they are not LEOs, but K of P needs to think about ramping up quality security levels there. This could have gotten much worse.

I'll tell you this, the packs that I saw, in age of 10 to 17 YOA and the inability those guards to gain any control, tells me to always carry in that place. Now they're going to add 40 stores with a major renovation. Guess what? Once the public sees what's happening there, they'll all just head West to the outlets. I could care less either way, as neither place has what I'm every shopping for...

[comsubin61]

Normaly is not that bad in there, I go there every day to do my daily walk routine.
However I have noticed that security is comprised of what I might define as security rejects or wannabe's.
They are obviousely not equiped to deal with anything other then trying to look cool for the young ladies that might pay attention.
Most of them are out of shape, or too young to have any significant experience or even too old, they even given them scooters because they are so out of shape they cannot walk or run to where there might be a problem.

In a large areas as that mall and with the amount of customers that it attracts daily, nevern mind the short holiday season, they should have much better staff, better equiped and trained.

There used to be a police mini station in there, the office is still there but no police unless it is some sort of an event ot holidays.

The world is changing and more and more we, the citizens, have to learn to defend ourselves and not rely on someone else.

I always carry a gun with me, when I go to that mall I make sure to carry the largst gun with the most available rounds I can carry.

[Palerider]

I don't like malls much either. And loved the comment about security clearing out the clearly law abiding people, what a joke. Yes, head out and we're going to herd the pack right about behind you into the parking lot.

Here's another mall incident.

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/1...ll-of-america/

[JonEMTP]

Hey OP - I'm not trying to knock you - but your post makes it sound like you DIDN'T have a gun.

Why not?

I make trips to KOP once in a while - mostly when I need to consult with the "Occupy"-types at the the Apple Store. I'm never unarmed. Too many things can happen.

[Snert]

I work in NY but here is one that happened 2 days after I was at this mall. I used to goto this mall 2 times a week for my company.

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-02-13/u...-fire?_s=PM:US

and honestly, I used to carry 50% of the time here in PA. But since this happened I now carry 100% of the time in PA.

[joseywales]

Hey OP - I'm not trying to knock you - but your post makes it sound like you DIDN'T have a gun.

Why not?

I make trips to KOP once in a while - mostly when I need to consult with the "Occupy"-types at the the Apple Store. I'm never unarmed. Too many things can happen.

The main reason is: I bought a new car November 20th and was rear-ended on the 25th on Egypt Road! My freaking back and hips are still killing me, I'm doing PT, etc. and the pistols are causing too much pain. I think I need a good shoulder holster for these situations. Or dare I say a fanny pack

[mbinpa]

A couple of observations...

First off, one has to understand that mall security guards are NOT there for your safety. They are there to protect the merchants first and foremost. They are hired to provide the feeling of confidence among the shoppers so they will come back to the mall and spend money but the rent-a-cops are specifically told not to intervene in any kind of disturbance. They have neither the training, tools, fitness or inclination to get between individuals or groups that are seriously throwing fists.

If there was an LEO present you can bet he probably was waiting for back-up. Unless 'innocents' were being endangered a solo cop is probably not included to get to involved.

Finally, and for this forum probably the most important question based on the title of the thread, is what would you do with a weapon if you had one? Fire in the air? Shoot everyone involved? Unless there is a direct and immediate threat that weapon should stay in the holster. If you and the kiddies are just there rubbernecking and complaining about why someone doesn't do anything then things are not that bad. Certainly not bad enough to draw. If one feels that the situation is getting out of hand the first thing to do is to grab the family and retreat.

With all that said I rarely go without CC. This just appears to to be a situation requiring the need.

[joseywales]

A couple of observations...

First off, one has to understand that mall security guards are NOT there for your safety. They are there to protect the merchants first and foremost. They are hired to provide the feeling of confidence among the shoppers so they will come back to the mall and spend money but the rent-a-cops are specifically told not to intervene in any kind of disturbance. They have neither the training, tools, fitness or inclination to get between individuals or groups that are seriously throwing fists.

If there was an LEO present you can bet he probably was waiting for back-up. Unless 'innocents' were being endangered a solo cop is probably not included to get to involved.

Finally, and for this forum probably the most important question based on the title of the thread, is what would you do with a weapon if you had one? Fire in the air? Shoot everyone involved? Unless there is a direct and immediate threat that weapon should stay in the holster. If you and the kiddies are just there rubbernecking and complaining about why someone doesn't do anything then things are not that bad. Certainly not bad enough to draw. If one feels that the situation is getting out of hand the first thing to do is to grab the family and retreat.

With all that said I rarely go without CC. This just appears to to be a situation requiring the need.

Agreed, but why does the "room" they come running out of say Safety Office? Rhetorical question of course. Even LEO are not necessarily to protect and serve, they are first responders, which is why we carry and have firearms in the home in the first place. I get it.

Regarding the threat, for the most part, you are correct it was not necessarily "unsafe" for us. However, right across from us, there was a father pushing his two young children against the store window, to keep the pack from running into them. But again, to your point, if he's armed he's not drawing down on anyone.

My point is this: things could have gotten worse, if one of the pack members drew a firearm in a frenzie. It's entirely possible one or more of them were armed, but they looked like they were having more fun with the fight than anger. So it was game to them. Well, except for the fellow who took a fist to the back of the head. Not so much fun for him. But what if the exiting pack managed to get themselves cornered? Would their weapons, if any, have come out then?

A gun on my hip would have provided peace of mind in this scenario, and protection should this incident have esculated.

[B.A.]

I work in NY but here is one that happened 2 days after I was at this mall. I used to goto this mall 2 times a week for my company.

http://articles.cnn.com/2005-02-13/u...-fire?_s=PM:US

and honestly, I used to carry 50% of the time here in PA. But since this happened I now carry 100% of the time in PA.

I remember when that happened my Parents live about an hour north of there and do a lot of sopping near there.

[pa350z]

Agreed, but why does the "room" they come running out of say Safety Office? Rhetorical question of course. Even LEO are not necessarily to protect and serve, they are first responders, which is why we carry and have firearms in the home in the first place. I get it.

Regarding the threat, for the most part, you are correct it was not necessarily "unsafe" for us. However, right across from us, there was a father pushing his two young children against the store window, to keep the pack from running into them. But again, to your point, if he's armed he's not drawing down on anyone.

My point is this: things could have gotten worse, if one of the pack members drew a firearm in a frenzie. It's entirely possible one or more of them were armed, but they looked like they were having more fun with the fight than anger. So it was game to them. Well, except for the fellow who took a fist to the back of the head. Not so much fun for him. But what if the exiting pack managed to get themselves cornered? Would their weapons, if any, have come out then?

A gun on my hip would have provided peace of mind in this scenario, and protection should this incident have esculated.

Amen on both these posts. My mindset is purely defensive for me and my family. If I would happen upon an unprotected defenseless person being beat into a coma, maybe.