Under the Influence.

[mythaeus]

Everybody here is concentrating on the ramifications of possible criminal charges for a firearm owner who discharges his firearm after drinking. I agree that this is very important because we are talking upon conviction of depriving one of their freedom.

Another aspect that needs consideration, however, is the possibility of a civil suit. Remember that the standard of proof in a civil suit is no where near as difficult as that of a criminal case. While someone may not be charged/convicted of criminal charges; it does not bar the possibility of being sued and financially ruined.

A good attorney could make someone who consumed two beer look like they were blind drunk.

I would prefer not to drink and carry so as to not subject my family to financial ruin.

Again, this is a myth. I would be happy to have my mind changed if someone can produce some evident, anecdotal or otherwise, that a good shoot became a bad shoot because the shooter consumed alcohol.

As for the civil liability concern, the recent passage of PA Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground which now already in effect, HB 40, virtually eliminated civil liability for those who are found not guilty of criminal charges when using deadly force in self defense. Here is the story on the signage: http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/News....aspx?id=15275 . The full text of the signed bill can be found here and the first few lines of the bill even mentioned "civil immunity": http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/...r=0040&pn=1038

Al

[swack]

I got blacked out drunk at a strip club on my birthday last month while I was carrying (I remember the entire evening except the car ride home is spotty).

And what would you have done if you "came to" without the gun? You have to file a report and I don't think it would go over well saying that it disappeared from your possession while you were carrying it and you cant remember anymore than that because you were black out drunk.

just a thought

[Statkowski]

And what would you have done if you "came to" without the gun? You have to file a report and I don't think it would go over well saying that it disappeared from your possession while you were carrying it and you cant remember anymore than that because you were black out drunk.

just a thought

Why does one have to file a report? There's no state law requiring such.

It would probably make sense to do so, but it's not required.

[uniballin]

Everybody here is concentrating on the ramifications of possible criminal charges for a firearm owner who discharges his firearm after drinking. I agree that this is very important because we are talking upon conviction of depriving one of their freedom.

Another aspect that needs consideration, however, is the possibility of a civil suit. Remember that the standard of proof in a civil suit is no where near as difficult as that of a criminal case. While someone may not be charged/convicted of criminal charges; it does not bar the possibility of being sued and financially ruined.

A good attorney could make someone who consumed two beer look like they were blind drunk.

I would prefer not to drink and carry so as to not subject my family to financial ruin.

[scruff]

Again, this is a myth. I would be happy to have my mind changed if someone can produce some evident, anecdotal or otherwise, that a good shoot became a bad shoot because the shooter consumed alcohol.

As for the civil liability concern, the recent passage of PA Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground which now already in effect, HB 40, virtually eliminated civil liability for those who are found not guilty of criminal charges when using deadly force in self defense. Here is the story on the signage: http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/News....aspx?id=15275 . The full text of the signed bill can be found here and the first few lines of the bill even mentioned "civil immunity": http://www.legis.state.pa.us/CFDOCS/...r=0040&pn=1038

Al

If you think the truth always wins in court, you could be in for a rude awakening someday. Many people are prejudiced against gun owners to begin with. Throw in some booze and some other unfavorable evidence, real or imagined, and fahgettaboudit!

[mythaeus]

If you think the truth always wins in court, you could be in for a rude awakening someday. Many people are prejudiced against gun owners to begin with. Throw in some booze and some other unfavorable evidence, real or imagined, and fahgettaboudit!

I don't have any such illusions, but I just find it vexing when people keep repeating things that sounds full of merits, yet have no evident to back them up. I have provided evident to the contrary of such claims. If you believe in your claims, that is fine, just don't present them as facts if you can't back them up no matter how "common sense" the claims may sound. My purpose is to provide information, base of facts, and let people decide. I believe that we are all responsible adult gun owners and can decide for ourselves.

Al

[H22ate]

I think you're playing with fire, dude. I never want to lose control of a situation, especially if I'm carrying. If I were to pass out or lose memory of what was going on, how would I be able to make sure that my firearm was safely secured in my holster? Someone could try to disarm you and do God knows what with your weapon (hint, none of them are good).

EXACTLY! X1000, When I drink at a bar (rarely) I dont always carry but either way I had to get to the bar somehow, so I would be more worried about the DUI than having a pistol on my hip and god forbid when you come about its gone.

Anyone over 30 that still gets "beer muscles" should have to go to obedience school!

You havent been to many bars huh?
That stuff happens all the time "beer muscles" or not poeple tend to misbehave when they are drunk no matter what age they are.

Why does one have to file a report? There's no state law requiring such.

It would probably make sense to do so, but it's not required.

But what would you do when you get a 3am phone call from the PSP saying your firearm was used in a murder. Correct me if im wrong but wouldnt you be liable for that since you didnt report it stolen.
I dont know, even before I took a leak I would call and report it stolen.... maybe its just me though.

[scruff]

I don't have any such illusions, but I just find it vexing when people keep repeating things that sounds full of merits, yet have no evident to back them up. I have provided evident to the contrary of such claims. If you believe in your claims, that is fine, just don't present them as facts if you can't back them up no matter how "common sense" the claims may sound. My purpose is to provide information, base of facts, and let people decide. I believe that we are all responsible adult gun owners and can decide for ourselves.

Al

You sound pretty sure of yourself, but once you pull the trigger, things can spiral out of your control. Here's a good example - the case of Larry Hickey, a clear-cut case of self-defense by an upstanding citizen and an accomplished firearms trainer, 71 days in jail, tried twice and run through the wringer, even though he had the help of an impressive legal team which included Massad Ayoob, then had to deal with a civil case.

I'm not saying you should never drink while carrying, but that's my choice. If you can guarantee that I'd never be railroaded by police and prosecutors, I'd be happy to go out drinking with you. But you can't, so I won't.

[mythaeus]

...

But what would you do when you get a 3am phone call from the PSP saying your firearm was used in a murder. Correct me if im wrong but wouldnt you be liable for that since you didnt report it stolen.
I dont know, even before I took a leak I would call and report it stolen.... maybe its just me though.

Liable for what? The murder? Where does it say in the law that you are liable for anything because what you owned and lost was used in a crime. You're not any more liable than if someone stole your car and ran over and killed someone.

Statkowski didn't say "don't report", he said you don't have to report as the previous post stated. PA has no "lost or stolen" laws. He even went on and said "it would probably make sense to do so". No one is encourage anyone not to report a lost/stolen gun, we are simply stating what we are not required to do.

Al

[mythaeus]

You sound pretty sure of yourself, but once you pull the trigger, things can spiral out of your control. Here's a good example - the case of Larry Hickey, a clear-cut case of self-defense by an upstanding citizen and an accomplished firearms trainer, 71 days in jail, tried twice and run through the wringer, even though he had the help of an impressive legal team which included Massad Ayoob, then had to deal with a civil case.

I'm not saying you should never drink while carrying, but that's my choice. If you can guarantee that I'd never be railroaded by police and prosecutors, I'd be happy to go out drinking with you. But you can't, so I won't.

This case is not relevant to the topic that we are discussing or to the points that I made. First of all, no alcohol was involved. Secondly, it happened in AZ, where I don't know whether civil lawsuit immunity exists. Going through the legal wrangling after an SD shoot is a fact of life, alcohol involved or not.

Al