Non-NFA Short Barreled Shotgun

[Atonob]

I searched a few times and couldn't find anything related to this (I'm sure it has probably been discussed in some capacity before) . But has anyone seen this re-make of the Speedfeed Birdshead grip for the Mossberg 500 - made by Shockwave Technologies?

It seems that if the shotgun was manufactured as a Pistol Grip only, you can cut the barrel back from 18" - as long as the overall length is 26" or greater?

Now my question is - is this legal in PA? I saw the PA definition of shotgun, but it seems that PGO shotguns are NOT technically considered shotguns? Therefore it would be legal? It just seems like it would be hard to prove to someone that the shotgun was manufactured as a PGO, and even more difficult to explain why you didn't need a tax stamp? Would it be a good idea to get an ATF confirmation letter for your individual shotgun?

What are everyone's thoughts?

[ChrisUSMC]

An overall length of 26 inches classifies the firearm as a long gun but it still must meet the barrel length requirements of 18 or 16 inches. If not its considered a Class 3 firearm and you have to go through the ATF to own it. Factory pistol grip shotguns meet the 26in overall length so they are considered long guns.

[Atonob]

An overall length of 26 inches classifies the firearm as a long gun but it still must meet the barrel length requirements of 18 or 16 inches. If not its considered a Class 3 firearm and you have to go through the ATF to own it. Factory pistol grip shotguns meet the 26in overall length so they are considered long guns.

But it would seem that the PGO 'Shotguns' are actually classified as 'NOT Shotguns' according to the ATF. As Shotguns were defined as a device designed to be fired from the shoulder.

And as per this clarification letter:
Seen Here.

Although I think I would want my own letter of approval before undertaking the process of a 14" Non-Title II Shotgun.

[ChrisUSMC]

so they aren't shotguns by ATF ruling but it couldnt be a hand gun because the ATF says that a handgun shell may be no larger than .50 cal or its a an AOW or destructive device. which is the problem taurus had with their 28 ga raging judge. So what catagory do the PGO shotguns fall under then. When we sell one and do our paperwork they are still considered shotguns by the PSP. From a dealers stand point we are still registering them as shotguns because we haven't been told otherwise.

[Atonob]

From a dealers stand point we are still registering them as shotguns because we haven't been told otherwise.

If I'm understanding it correctly, PGO shotguns (such as a Mossberg Cruiser etc.) are to be marked 'Other' on the 4473 and not sold to anyone under the age of 21.

[JayBell]

so they aren't shotguns by ATF ruling but it couldnt be a hand gun because the ATF says that a handgun shell may be no larger than .50 cal or its a an AOW or destructive device. which is the problem taurus had with their 28 ga raging judge. So what catagory do the PGO shotguns fall under then. When we sell one and do our paperwork they are still considered shotguns by the PSP. From a dealers stand point we are still registering them as shotguns because we haven't been told otherwise.

err.. no. one classification of DDs are a nonsporting firearm with a RIFLED bore over 1/2"(example: a rifled slug gun with a short barrel), and a AOW pistolgrip shotgun is a AOW due to being a "smoothbore pistol that fires a fixed shotshell" (example: serbu super shorty )

regular PG shotguns ..they arent a handgun, and they arent a long gun, but they are a firearm that requires a buyer to be 21 due to the "non shoulder fired longarm" nature of the design is all.

theres another thing about the barrel length under 18" of a PGO shotgun, but I'm not read enough in the issue to discuss that with any familiarity.

[bac0nfat]

If you cut the barrel under 18" it WILL be an NFA item, there is absolutely no way around it. Why don't you just go for it, and do it legally? It's fairly easy, and you will forget about the $200 you spent on the tax stamp the first time you go to the range and turn heads with it.

[Atonob]

If you cut the barrel under 18" it WILL be an NFA item, there is absolutely no way around it.

That was my interpretation for the longest time as well. But it would seem (apparently) that, that is not the case if the shotgun was originally sold with only a pistol grip and has never had a stock on it. Although it would be difficult to prove to someone who is ignorant of the exact definition that your particular shotgun was originally sold as such.

[bac0nfat]

That was my interpretation for the longest time as well. But it would seem (apparently) that, that is not the case if the shotgun was originally sold with only a pistol grip and has never had a stock on it. Although it would be difficult to prove to someone who is ignorant of the exact definition that your particular shotgun was originally sold as such.

That picture is WRONG WRONG WRONG. You will go to jail if caught with that firearm and no paperwork. Give me some time to dig up the statutes.

If it has never had a stock on it, then it can be an AOW instead of SBS, which is still considered NFA.

ETA:

§ 5845. Definitions

(e) Any other weapon. -- The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Just looked into it further, and found an interesting letter from the ATF:

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/Pisto...hotgunLike.pdf

The question is whether or not the firearm in question is capable of being concealed on one's person. I'd say that a 26" shotgun could easily be concealed on one's person, and I think a jury would agree. You have to take ATF letters with a grain of salt. For one, they have been known to flip-flop on legal issues (Akins accelerator, for example). Also a letter alone does not overrule the law. IMO you are taking a huge risk by making that shotgun and using a photocopy of an ATF letter as a legal defense.

ETA: Here's another ATF letter I just found:

http://www.nfaoa.org/documents/testttt20001.pdf

There might be some merit here. (Dare I say I might have been wrong? ) I'm still very skeptical about the "ability to conceal" part. Looking forward to see what other people say about this.

[Atonob]

The question is whether or not the firearm in question is capable of being concealed on one's person. I'd say that a 26" shotgun could easily be concealed on one's person.

I agree that the ability to conceal is the issue (26") but at the same time, it is not up to our opinion rather the law - which says 26" is the limit.

You have to take ATF letters with a grain of salt. For one, they have been known to flip-flop on legal issues (Akins accelerator, for example).

This I completely agree and am well aware on. But since you're outside the realm of NFA, if they reverse their decision the most you are out of is a shortened barrel which can easily be destroyed/sold to a legal entity. The receiver itself (unlike the reversal on an NFA decision) would not have to be destroyed.

IMO you are taking a huge risk by making that shotgun and using a photocopy of an ATF letter as a legal defense.

I haven't fully decided whether I'm going to undertake buying a barrel/grip to make the set-up as I wanted to make it was completely legal first. But until I find out, I'm withholding any purchases. Hence my reason for posting.