Missouri Bullets "Hardness Optimized"

[Tim Ault]

You Sir are missing the whole point everyone is trying to make in their posts and you seem to know very little about cast bullets and loading /shooting them and how they differ from jacketed. First off and again we all know the bullets started out at .356 dia. And I ask have you measured the bullets that you have loaded and then pulled(have you?) I guarantee after seeing those pictures that they are less than .356 probably more like .353 . So How in the hell does a undersized cast bullet lead a barrel you ask? Simple the bullet is smaller than the groove dia. And as the really really hot gases are pushing it out of the case and down your super smooth lapped barrel at 30K psi of pressure and since the barrel is not sealed (undersized bullet theory again) that gas is actually eroding the alloy as its being forced through that small gap between the barrel too small of bullet and depositing /smearing it on the barrel, This is all new to you isnt it ? Be honest now! Its not the fault of a softer alloy lots of folks shoot a soft alloy at higher speeds without issue Whats causing it is your loading of them ,the crimping to be exact or I should say over crimping. You actually deformed /squeezed down the base of the bullet with the crimp making it smaller than your groove dia. shot them and got leading in your barrel. Hey it happens most of use that cast or shoot lots of cast bullets have experienced it. But dont go blame the bullet caster for your mistake.I'm sure they wouldnt recommend crimping them twice either. As for why the nose deformed when you pulled them simple look how much neck tension you had any cast bullet would get deformed with a collet puller and alot of neck tension. Again your mistake not "bad" bullets . A hard bullet thats undersized will lead the barrel just the same dont believe me load a cast .356 dia. bullet in a 38/.357 revolver and see what happens.

[Franchi20/28]

Colored text is my reply to specific comments of OP.

So what is it, do factory crimp dies suck the hardness out of lead? LMAO Why doesn't it suck the hardness out of any other bullets I have loaded or are factory crimp dies brand sucking specific? LMAO

The Lee FCD is really nothing more than a sizing die without a decapping pin. Cast bullets tend to be over size. Groove for a 9mm is .355 and your bullets are .356. jacketed bullets are .355. FCD's are made with jacketed bullets in mind. If your brass springs back a bit after resizing or gets bulged a tad from seating a bullet the FCD swages it back down again to facilitate chambering. Add an oversize bullet and thick brass and when the FCD swages the brass down again it also swages the bullet inside of it to a smaller diameter. I have read but never verified that 9mm (especially the european makes) are notorious for having oversize bores as well. This adds up to undersized bullets as well as bullets that are held super tight in the brass.

Don't forget though, these bullets are for sale if any of you who think they are good want them.

I am willing to risk that there's nothing wrong with the lead in those bullets and will buy them for the price of the lead and remelt and cast them myself.

[MaDuece]

Not to doubt the other posters questioning the Lee FCD but just my take on the pictures.

The lead "damming" as you call it is usually caused by a combo seating/crimping die that is overcrimping. The die starts crimping long before the seater is finished. Once the case has been taper crimped to the point that the case mouth is basicly digging into the bullet, the seater continues to push the bullet deeper and "rolls" the lead up towards the head of the bullet.

The dam of lead essentialy becomes the case mouth and the firearm attempts to headspace on the dam. I bet when you "bumped" a few rounds into battery, you forced the lead ring down past the overcrimped case mouth.

I bet the use of the Lee FCD made the finshed product look nice and pretty with a continual flow from brass to lead?

That is the ring in the die swaging the lead back to outside diameter of the case.

As a previous posted asked, what is the current size on the base AND just below the lead ring? I would bet that just under the ring of lead the bullets are under .350!

[Franchi20/28]

Not to doubt the other posters questioning the Lee FCD but just my take on the pictures.

The lead "damming" as you call it is usually caused by a combo seating/crimping die that is overcrimping. The die starts crimping long before the seater is finished. Once the case has been taper crimped to the point that the case mouth is basicly digging into the bullet, the seater continues to push the bullet deeper and "rolls" the lead up towards the head of the bullet.

The dam of lead essentialy becomes the case mouth and the firearm attempts to headspace on the dam. I bet when you "bumped" a few rounds into battery, you forced the lead ring down past the overcrimped case mouth.

I bet the use of the Lee FCD made the finshed product look nice and pretty with a continual flow from brass to lead?

That is the ring in the die swaging the lead back to outside diameter of the case.

As a previous posted asked, what is the current size on the base AND just below the lead ring? I would bet that just under the ring of lead the bullets are under .350!

This is exactly what happened in my first attempt to load cast bullets. I was trying to seat and crimp in one step like you do with jacketed bullets. This would shave lube and lead which would build up in the seating die and start seating deeper and deeper until you cleaned it out. Firing the rounds would gum the works of any auto pistol. what a mess! I swore off cast for a lot of years after that.

I suggest giving up the Lee FCD and getting a second seat/crimp die. use the first to seat ONLY and the second to apply a taper crimp without resizing the whole brass case (and the bullet inside it) again. Works so good for me I now shoot nothing but my own home cast pistol bullets. I make em for the wife's 9mm, my .40, The daughter's .45 and her husbands .40.

[phill]

You Sir are missing the whole point everyone is trying to make in their posts and you seem to know very little about cast bullets and loading /shooting them and how they differ from jacketed. First off and again we all know the bullets started out at .356 dia. And I ask have you measured the bullets that you have loaded and then pulled(have you?) I guarantee after seeing those pictures that they are less than .356 probably more like .353 . So How in the hell does a undersized cast bullet lead a barrel you ask? Simple the bullet is smaller than the groove dia. And as the really really hot gases are pushing it out of the case and down your super smooth lapped barrel at 30K psi of pressure and since the barrel is not sealed (undersized bullet theory again) that gas is actually eroding the alloy as its being forced through that small gap between the barrel too small of bullet and depositing /smearing it on the barrel, This is all new to you isnt it ? Be honest now! Its not the fault of a softer alloy lots of folks shoot a soft alloy at higher speeds without issue Whats causing it is your loading of them ,the crimping to be exact or I should say over crimping. You actually deformed /squeezed down the base of the bullet with the crimp making it smaller than your groove dia. shot them and got leading in your barrel. Hey it happens most of use that cast or shoot lots of cast bullets have experienced it. But dont go blame the bullet caster for your mistake.I'm sure they wouldnt recommend crimping them twice either. As for why the nose deformed when you pulled them simple look how much neck tension you had any cast bullet would get deformed with a collet puller and alot of neck tension. Again your mistake not "bad" bullets . A hard bullet thats undersized will lead the barrel just the same dont believe me load a cast .356 dia. bullet in a 38/.357 revolver and see what happens.

Worth one more run. Polite and factual.

[LeadHead]

Worth one more run. Polite and factual.

I'm not going to entertain any more witch hunts here; I'll get back to you with the lab report on the actual Brinell of the bullets.

None of you were present when these events happened, therefore none of you know what you're talking about; you're just speculating and beating me up in ignorance. If my successful reloading for the last 40 years, never having this kind of problem isn't cause enough to understand this isn't an issue that resulted from my loading mistake, then nothing will convince you so I'll just let you say what you want understand you don't know what you';re talking about.

I'll post the Brinell results when I get them; till then, sit tight and know I'm not even going to waste my time reading the witch hunt, speculation garbage blaming soft bullets on my loading skills.

Fair enough?

[LeadHead]

I am willing to risk that there's nothing wrong with the lead in those bullets and will buy them for the price of the lead and remelt and cast them myself.

Hey Frenchi this was part of your recent post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeadHead
So what is it, do factory crimp dies suck the hardness out of lead? LMAO Why doesn't it suck the hardness out of any other bullets I have loaded or are factory crimp dies brand sucking specific? LMAO

The Lee FCD is really nothing more than a sizing die without a decapping pin. Cast bullets tend to be over size. Groove for a 9mm is .355 and your bullets are .356. jacketed bullets are .355. FCD's are made with jacketed bullets in mind. If your brass springs back a bit after resizing or gets bulged a tad from seating a bullet the FCD swages it back down again to facilitate chambering. Add an oversize bullet and thick brass and when the FCD swages the brass down again it also swages the bullet inside of it to a smaller diameter. I have read but never verified that 9mm (especially the european makes) are notorious for having oversize bores as well. This adds up to undersized bullets as well as bullets that are held super tight in the brass.Don't forget though, these bullets are for sale if any of you who think they are good want them.

The part I highlighted in red is not a quote from a post of mine as you represent in your post; a Lee Factory Crimp Die is NOT a sizing die without the decapping pin and I would nave NEVER said such a thing.

The bullets are for sale for the price of the bullets because I want my money back. When the results come in, they go to the FTC with a complaint for false advertising/mislabeled product. I paid for 18 Brinell bullets and if they are not 18 Brinell I want my money back.

[MaDuece]

I'm not going to entertain any more witch hunts here; I'll get back to you with the lab report on the actual Brinell of the bullets.

None of you were present when these events happened, therefore none of you know what you're talking about; you're just speculating and beating me up in ignorance. If my successful reloading for the last 40 years, never having this kind of problem isn't cause enough to understand this isn't an issue that resulted from my loading mistake, then nothing will convince you so I'll just let you say what you want understand you don't know what you';re talking about.

I'll post the Brinell results when I get them; till then, sit tight and know I'm not even going to waste my time reading the witch hunt, speculation garbage blaming soft bullets on my loading skills.

Fair enough?

Calling people ignorant should win you a lot of support on the board!

Personaly I have witness guys with quite a bit more experience then you make a mistake in hand loading ammo that cost them a few dollars!

After seeing your pictures and reading your posts, you are starting to sound like the guy that buys a car based on its 40mpg rating on premium fuel and then wants his money back because it only gets 35mpg on reguler? AFTER driving the car for 50,000 miles!

ETA: comparing a LSWC to a LRN to further "prove" your point? That doesn't sit well with those that understand bullet design! My take on the difference in lube groove is that the LSWC is of the design used by casters such as Penn Bullet, yes it is wide but it is also very shallow! The LRN is of the design that the lube groove is narrow but it is also deep! Either style works fine! The end result that is hoped for is that the bullet contains enough lube to coat the entire barrel! That is determined by the type of lube being used.

[LeadHead]

Calling people ignorant should win you a lot of support on the board!

Personaly I have witness guys with quite a bit more experience then you make a mistake in hand loading ammo that cost them a few dollars!

After seeing your pictures and reading your posts, you are starting to sound like the guy that buys a car based on its 40mpg rating on premium fuel and then wants his money back because it only gets 35mpg on reguler? AFTER driving the car for 50,000 miles!

ETA: comparing a LSWC to a LRN to further "prove" your point? That doesn't sit well with those that understand bullet design!

No I just expected a bullet that wouldn't lead my gun up so much that within a round of steel target shooting the gun wouldn't be at risk of exploding and I could get a bullet in a shell without it deforming under normal loading procedures. Was that asking too much?

I load on a Hornady Lock-N-Load and 5 different calibers of dies are all set in bushings or collars (whatever they call them) and a different powder thru base for case flair for each caliber set at the proper setting forever. I've loaded more than 10,000 9 MM’s with the current crimp setting and case flair; bullets from my usual supplier load completely error free with NO barrel leading, no lead build up no nothing, only the bullets from Missouri Bullets caused these problems. Oh and I have no problem pulling a bullet from my usual supplier and reusing it because it is not at all deformed. Now how do you explain that?

Maybe, just maybe I’m not stupid like you’re all trying to make me out to be and the bullets from Missouri Bullets are extremely soft as the pictures clearly show. Waddayouthink?

Did you read? Sit tight for the BHN results later in the week or you can just keep beating a dead horse in your imagination.

[MaDuece]

Red be me!

No I just expected a bullet that wouldn't lead my gun up so much that within a round of steel target shooting the gun wouldn't be at risk of exploding and I could get a bullet in a shell without it deforming under normal loading procedures. Was that asking too much?
that is definately not to much to ask and it is what all lead shooters look for
I load on a Hornady Lock-N-Load and 5 different calibers of dies are all set in bushings or collars (whatever they call them) and a different powder thru base for case flair for each caliber set at the proper setting forever. I've loaded more than 10,000 9 MM’s with the current crimp setting and case flair; bullets from my usual supplier load completely error free with NO barrel leading, no lead build up no nothing, only the bullets from Missouri Bullets caused these problems. Oh and I have no problem pulling a bullet from my usual supplier and reusing it because it is not at all deformed. Now how do you explain that?
That adds another question to the mix! You loaded 10,000 bullets from your normal supplier with the same set up? Are you sure the bullet design and profile is the same? if Miss. bullets have a longer nose then, the seating/crimping combo die is doing exactly as I explained earlier!
Maybe, just maybe I’m not stupid like you’re all trying to make me out to be and the bullets from Missouri Bullets are extremely soft as the pictures clearly show. Waddayouthink?
I didnt hear anyone call you stupid! this is a discussion board and all I see is guys making opinions based on what your pics show and what you have posted! It could be the bullets are extremely soft but either way your pics show evidence of other problems relating to how they were loaded.
Did you read? Sit tight for the BHN results later in the week or you can just keep beating a dead horse in your imagination.

and look at that! a rather calm discussive post right up till the last line when you had to get defensive and insulting?

If by chance your current offer doesnt pan out then by all means please feel free to PM me! I will gladly run a BH test on a few of the heads for you but keep in mind! I will test all the way around and even if I hurt your feelings, I will tell you what my tests showed!