Reciprocity question

[snakeman21]

Hi all. As most of you know, I now live in Vermont. I was thinking the other day, and realized a possible problem.

First of all, I have a PA LTCF that I obtained while I lived in PA. It is still valid until 2015.

Now, let's say I come down to PA for Thanksgiving with the in-laws. While going to the store one day, I am pulled over and through whatever conversation follows, it is revealed that I am carrying and I am asked to produce my LTCF. I strongly doubt that the cop would know this is legal, having been given a Vermont driver's license and a PA LTCF. Perhaps the cop thinks the license is no longer valid now that I've moved. (perhaps this is true--if so, correct me)

Now, to make things more complicated, let's say I go to a state that honors my PA LTCF. New Hampshire, for example, or Florida. Now, I am not only handing over an out-of-state driver's license, but I am handing over an LTCF from yet a another state. I doubt there is any case law on such specific circumstances, what do you think?

[Curmudgeon]

Don't PA and VT have reciprocity? The PA LTCF is the same for residents and non-residents, so there is no reason for you to not have one.

There are plenty of folks carrying throughout the country on non-res permits/licenses, I really don't think this is anything new.

From what we can see on YouTube, if a cop wants to hassle you, he's going to hassle you.

You could advise the Sheriff's Dept that issued your LTCF of your address change. I'm not really sure what else there would be for you to do.

[HiredGoon]

I dunno... maybe a tip would be to carry your old PA driver license that matches the address on your PA LTCF?

[snakeman21]

Don't PA and VT have reciprocity? The PA LTCF is the same for residents and non-residents, so there is no reason for you to not have one.

In a word, no. Reciprocity is irrelevant in Vermont. Vermont recognizes NO out-of-state permits, because the point is moot. Even a resident in another state that is not licensed to carry can visit Vermont and carry. This is a bad thing, too, because no other state will honor a Vermonter's right to carry. I kind of wish we did issue licenses just so we could get some reciprocity agreements. I'm not worried about VT law or PA law. I'm worried about cops in PA or states that recognize PA LTCF's not knowing what to do in the circumstances. For example, a cop in Florida might occasionally run across a PA resident with a LTCF. But how often does he run across a Vermont resident with a PA LTCF?

[B]There are plenty of folks carrying throughout the country on non-res permits/licenses, I really don't think this is anything new.

True, there are. But I do not have a non-res license, I have a resident license even though I don't live in the state. That might seem fraudulent, or fishy at the very least.

[B]You could advise the Sheriff's Dept that issued your LTCF of your address change. I'm not really sure what else there would be for you to do.

You know, I though of this right after I moved. But I didn't because after all the bullshit I had to go through with the Monroe county sheriff to get the LTCF in the first place and listening to him tell me that he could "do whatever he wants," I have a strong feeling he would just tell me it's no longer valid and I cannot carry in PA.

I dunno... maybe a tip would be to carry your old PA driver license that matches the address on your PA LTCF?

Good idea, but I never got a PA drivers license. Long story short, because my VT license was expired, PA wanted me to:

Get a physical
Take a pearner's permit test and get a learner's permit (keep in mind I drove a taxi for two years... and they want me to get a learner's permit? At 22? I think not, assholes.)
Go through all the technicalities of getting driving experience, only drive with another licensed driver, etc
Finally, take a road test and get a license.

The whole process was going to take a few months and a lot more money than I was willing to spend to let them f*ck me. Instead, I simply waited until I moved back to VT. I walked into the DMV and said, "I need to renew an expired license." She looked at the old license, took my picture, and ten minutes later I walked out with my license.

I do still have my PA nondriver ID, but that would be useless as I would still have to hand over a valid DL.

[Curmudgeon]

In a word, no. Reciprocity is irrelevant in Vermont. Vermont recognizes NO out-of-state permits, because the point is moot. Even a resident in another state that is not licensed to carry can visit Vermont and carry. This is a bad thing, too, because no other state will honor a Vermonter's right to carry. I kind of wish we did issue licenses just so we could get some reciprocity agreements. I'm not worried about VT law or PA law. I'm worried about cops in PA or states that recognize PA LTCF's not knowing what to do in the circumstances. For example, a cop in Florida might occasionally run across a PA resident with a LTCF. But how often does he run across a Vermont resident with a PA LTCF?



True, there are. But I do not have a non-res license, I have a resident license even though I don't live in the state. That might seem fraudulent, or fishy at the very least.

I'm not sure you get it. Although we often refer to "non-res" permits/licenses, is PA as well as many other states, there is no difference between a res and non-res license.

There is nothing to "look fishy". A resident of VT can get a PA LTCF, and it will look exactly like the one you now have. Worst case scenario is they call it in to PSP and it is verified as legit.


ETA: NOTE: Although VT does not issue CCWs, this would not disqualify you from a PA LTCF. A carry permit/license from your home state is only required by PA if your state issues them. Your does not. So when your current LTCF expires, you can return to PA and renew it with no problem.

[snakeman21]

I'm not sure you get it. Although we often refer to "non-res" permits/licenses, is PA as well as many other states, there is no difference between a res and non-res license.

There is nothing to "look fishy". A resident of VT can get a PA LTCF, and it will look exactly like the one you now have. Worst case scenario is they call it in to PSP and it is verified as legit.

I'm not 100% on this, but I thought one of the requirements for getting a non-res PA LTCF was that you have to have a valid CCW or LTCF from your state of residence?

[tl_3237]

As Curmudgeon correctly points out:

18 Pa CS 6109(e) Issuance of license.--
(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).

[snakeman21]

I was incorrect on the requirement for a non res, thank you for clearing that up. But I'm not interested in getting a non-res LTCF, I already have a LTCF from PA.

I think people are missing my point a bit. I KNOW that I can legally carry with a PA LTCF anywhere is it honored. I'm not questioning the legality. I wasn't looking for clarification of reciprocity, I was looking for a discussion an how this situation might play out and how we might deal with it. I know that I can bring a firearm to Florida and then carry it there. That's all well and good... but what about dealing with cops who either don't know or don't care?

Perhaps I should have ended my original post with:

"Discuss?"

[Curmudgeon]

I was incorrect on the requirement for a non res, thank you for clearing that up. But I'm not interested in getting a non-res LTCF, I already have a LTCF from PA.

I think people are missing my point a bit. I KNOW that I can legally carry with a PA LTCF anywhere is it honored. I'm not questioning the legality. I wasn't looking for clarification of reciprocity, I was looking for a discussion an how this situation might play out and how we might deal with it. I know that I can bring a firearm to Florida and then carry it there. That's all well and good... but what about dealing with cops who either don't know or don't care?

Perhaps I should have ended my original post with:

"Discuss?"

There is always a chance of running into a LEO who doesn't know or care. You could even have that in VT.

I carry a knowledge of the laws, 1A, 2A, 4A, and 5A rights, and a voice recorder. Additionally, I have my personal determination to resist an attempt at oppression to an extent that I can live with.

What do you do? Discuss...
.

[donm]

Now, to make things more complicated, let's say I go to a state that honors my PA LTCF. New Hampshire, for example, or Florida.

Not really complicated at all. Since you're no longer a PA resident, your LTCF is no longer honored in NH, FL, MI, or CO. You'll need to get a NH license (easy to get, but $100 for non-residents) to carry there. Same with Florida. AFAIK, you're out of luck for MI and CO --they don't issue to non-residents.