What ammo do you carry????

[bagman29]

Apparently. I was gonna grab some of thier(38 spl +p 110 grain loaded with barnes solid copper) but then I research them. I found TONS of people chronographing thier rounds and comming up well short of thier advertised fps. One youtube vid the guy is comming up 350 fps less. Thats significant. I will not buy from them

Dangit!!!! Now I have to buy a chronometer. Maybe I'll check out Buffalo Bore from Midway.

[Valorius]

Then popular opinion is misguided. Though there is no definite proof either way, for or against the lethality of FMJ versus HP ammunition. Though studies generally show that by far the most common cause of death by firearm is due to blood loss or brain damage, not tissue disruption or energy transfer. FMJ ammunition generally enables much greater and more rapid blood loss. Have you read the FBI study on Handgun lethality?

Yes I have read it (if it's the same report i'm thinking of), and i do not think it supports the conclusions you are attempting to draw.

The US military, which has little concern about overpenetration uses expanding and fragmenting rounds almost exclusively in 5.56, and also in several 7.62mm loadings.

To argue that non expanding/fragmenting FMJ is more lethal than JHP or fragmenting ammunition, when penetration is through and through with either, is just plain silly. Round nose FMJ creates a wound channel like an icepick, and is the worst possible bullet profile to use to inflict damage or death.

What YouTube video are you talking about? I haven't watched any YouTube videos, nor would I use them to base a conclusion.

I didn't mention you tube in the post you quoted.

I dont carry Hollow-points because I believe they are more lethal than FMJ ammunition. I carry them because I believe they are less likely to overpenetrate the target and hit someone else (Though I dont know of any real case where this has happened.) and because if I miss, and hit a wall or other hard object there is much less chance of penetration and if it does penetrate the wall or other hard object the HP will be greatly deformed and less dangerous to whomever may be on the other side. Hell, many HP rounds will deform on denim and lose much of their expansion potential before hitting their target.

Some HP's clog in denim, they do not deform from denim. Maybe some high speed you tube videos would serve you well to watch afterall.

If I wanted to carry for lethality, I would probably carry some form of FMJ ammunition for greater penetration and increased rate of blood loss in the target. Lethality depends much more so on shot placement than ammunition type or caliber.

I have to wonder where you are getting your wound ballistics information.

If both achieve through and through penetration, which many JHP's will , then JHP (or fragmenting soft tip, OTM or FMJ) is clearly more lethal than non expanding FMJ ammunition.

Especially when compared to round nose FMJ.

Just compare the lethality of 5.56mm M955 non expanding AP ammo to that of Mk262 Mod 1 OTM fragmenting info, and it is a night and day difference.

I carry Hollow pionts (mostly with petals) because if the bullet should happen to stay in the bad guy I want it to be harder to remove quickly by doctors and hopefully that muther fucker will die on the operating table if he made it that far.
Black Talons are notoriously hard to remove surgically.

Many designs with sharp petals also enhance wounding potential. (Barnes Tac XP, Ranger SXT, Federal HST, etc)

[ByblosHex]

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

Penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44

I'm getting my wound information form the FBI, among other sources... who use real-life scenarios to make their conclusions and not science experiments or YouTube videos with non-human targets.

I don't know about now, but when I was in the US Military they only used FMJ ammunition exclusively in all small arms.

Being clogged with denim will prevent them from performing. Being deformed or unable to expand is moot. A FMJ round will fare better through denim than a HP any day of the week, and this is from someone who carries HP ammunition exclusively.

The factors involved in handgun incapacitation are Mental State of the target, Penetration and Shot Placement. HP ammunition does nothing to increase these factors favorably and most definitely reduces penetration in almost all circumstances.

I carry HP because I don't want to shoot to kill, I shoot to stop a threat.

[Valorius]

Again, what you quoted simply does not support your conclusion.

How do we increase the size of the hole? With expanding or fragmenting ammunition. So long as both rounds achieve through and through penetration, any fragmenting or expanding design will cause far more damage than a round nose FMJ design.

I cannot believe you're even arguing about this.

You were in the military and used M193 and M855 right? BOTH of those rounds are fragmenting designs that cause massive tissue destruction AND penetrate over 30 cm of gelatin. The reason that M855 has been replaced in service is because often it did not fragment soon enough, and would zip right through, leaving an icepick type wound profile that would cause very little damage and took much longer to incapacitate.

In 5.56mm, Mk262 Mod1, Mk318 Mod 0 and "5.56mm Optimized/brown tip" are all expanding or fragmenting designs as well. The ONLY non expanding/fragmenting round used by US forces in 5.56mm is the M995 AP round, which had terrible performance in Somalia in actual combat.

To argue that total tissue destruction (the PCC) is not a factor in lethality is nuts. It's certainly not THE factor, but it very much is a factor.

[ByblosHex]

Again, what you quoted simply does not support your conclusion.

How do we increase the size of the hole? With expanding or fragmenting ammunition. So long as both rounds achieve through and through penetration, any fragmenting or expanding design will cause far more damage than a round nose FMJ design.

I cannot believe you're even arguing about this.

You were in the military and used M193 and M855 right? BOTH of those rounds are fragmenting designs that cause massive tissue destruction AND penetrate over 30 cm of gelatin.

In 5.56mm, Mk262 Mod1, Mk318 Mod 0 and "5.56mm Optimized/brown tip" are all expanding or fragmenting designs as well.

To argue that total tissue destruction (the PCC) is not a factor in lethality is nuts. It's certainly not THE factor, but it very much is a factor.

Larger caliber was the FBI suggestion for a larger hole... Just saying. I'm not going to argue about it anymore.

M193 are FMJ rounds. They're not hollow-points. I didn't specifiy that round-nosed ammunition was the best.

The conclusion was copy-pasted form the FBI study. I haven't made any conclusions besides the ones found in that document since I've never actually shot anybody. Ballistic Gellatin means nothing to me compared to real-life scenarios, especially when it contradicts reality.

[Valorius]

M193 and M855 are FRAGMENTING FMJ rounds. When M855 doesn't fragment, and goes straight through like a conventional FMJ (behaving like non expanding M955 AP), it leaves a pathetic wound profile, and takes a very long time to stop the attacker. So much so that it was replaced with a round that would more reliably fragment

Mk318 Mod0 for the USMC, and M855A1 for the US Army. Both are specifically engineered to fragment in soft tissue.

The only non fragmenting FMJ rounds that are worth anything for shooting at living things are flat nose rounds, which are favored by big and dangerous game hunters.

You clearly need to do some reading my friend.



Look at the huge difference in tissue destruction between the fragmenting and non fragmenting rounds. (Chart by Doctor Gary Roberts)

[ByblosHex]

Again, what you quoted simply does not support your conclusion.

How do we increase the size of the hole? With expanding or fragmenting ammunition. So long as both rounds achieve through and through penetration, any fragmenting or expanding design will cause far more damage than a round nose FMJ design.

I cannot believe you're even arguing about this.

You were in the military and used M193 and M855 right? BOTH of those rounds are fragmenting designs that cause massive tissue destruction AND penetrate over 30 cm of gelatin. The reason that M855 has been replaced in service is because often it did not fragment soon enough, and would zip right through, leaving an icepick type wound profile that would cause very little damage and took much longer to incapacitate.

In 5.56mm, Mk262 Mod1, Mk318 Mod 0 and "5.56mm Optimized/brown tip" are all expanding or fragmenting designs as well. The ONLY non expanding/fragmenting round used by US forces in 5.56mm is the M995 AP round, which had terrible performance in Somalia in actual combat.

To argue that total tissue destruction (the PCC) is not a factor in lethality is nuts. It's certainly not THE factor, but it very much is a factor.

M193 and M855 are FRAGMENTING FMJ rounds. When M855 doesn't fragment, and goes straight through like a conventional FMJ (behaving like non expanding M955 AP), it leaves a pathetic wound profile, and takes a very long time to stop the attacker. So much so that it was replaced with a round that would more reliably fragment

Mk318 Mod0 for the USMC, and M855A1 for the US Army. Both are specifically engineered to fragment in soft tissue.

The only non fragmenting FMJ rounds that are worth anything for shooting at living things are flat nose rounds, which are favored by big and dangerous game hunters.

You clearly need to do some reading my friend.

I never said they didnt fragment. I said they were FMJ rounds, not HP, and I havent changed my mind either.

[Valorius]

Well, you are certainly hard headed, i'll give you that.

What makes the M193 and M855 "FMJ" bullets so devastating is that they basically blow up like small grenades inside the target. Non fragmenting FMJ (such as ALL pistol FMJ), totally sucks for shooting living things, especially with a round nose profile. It is the worst possible selection for shooting living things with.

[ByblosHex]

Well, you are certainly hard headed, i'll give you that.

What makes the M193 and M855 "FMJ" bullets so devastating is that they basically blow up like small grenades inside the target. Non fragmenting FMJ (such as ALL pistol FMJ), totally sucks for shooting living things, especially with a round nose profile. It is the worst possible selection for shooting living things with.

Everything about the US Military FMJ is moot anyway... though it is still an FMJ round.

We are talking about handguns, correct?

I assume most of us carry handguns on a daily basis and not rifles?

In cases where some fragmentation has occurred in handgun wounds, the bullet fragments are generally found within one centimeter of the permanent cavity. "The velocity of pistol bullets, even of the new high-velocity loadings, is insufficient to cause the shedding of lead fragments seen with rifle bullets."15 It is obvious that any additional wounding effect caused by such fragmentation in a handgun wound is inconsequential.

Also note, the FBI also concluded the temporary cavity (the big distortion in your ballistec gel tests) means nothing in hangdun effectiveness.

The tissue disruption caused by a handgun bullet is limited to two mechanisms. The first, or crush mechanism is the hole the bullet makes passing through the tissue. The second, or stretch mechanism is the temporary cavity formed by the tissues being driven outward in a radial direction away from the path of the bullet. Of the two, the crush mechanism, the result of penetration and permanent cavity, is the only handgun wounding mechanism which damages tissue.23 To cause significant injuries to a structure within the body using a handgun, the bullet must penetrate the structure. Temporary cavity has no reliable wounding effect in elastic body tissues. Temporary cavitation is nothing more than a stretch of the tissues, generally no larger than 10 times the bullet diameter (in handgun calibers), and elastic tissues sustain little, if any, residual damage.24,25,26

Bleeding causes death. Larger entrance/exit wounds cause more bleeding. FMJ rounds offer greater penetration and entrance/exit wound profiles. It's not very complicated. A bullet that does not completely pass through a target is much less likely to be lethal than a bullet that does pass through the target... again... according to the FBI.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

[Valorius]

The conclusions you're drawing are just not supported by the things you're quoting.

A JHP makes a bigger hole. And not just a bigger hole, but also a more damaging hole than RN FMJ or even FN FMJ. This is doubly true if the JHP design is of a cutting petal design. So long as it achieves through and through penetration, which many JHP's do, it will completely out perform FMJ in wounding potential.

Temporary wound cavity has nothing to do with it at most handgun velocities (though the 5.7x28mm is a very notable exception), as you say.

But that's irrelevant to the fact that a 1" diameter .45 cal expanded JHP that goes clean through the target creates a far more lethal wound than a non expanded .45 caliber FMJ round, which creates a wound profile like an icepick.

But i'm not going to argue all day about it. Use what you want.