Trust Sample I used

[GunLawyer001]

I'd like to add to that.

Just because you think "it works" does not make it valid. I see "it works" too many times in this thread. The ATF approving a Form 1 or Form 4 does not mean your trust is real. They have approved transfers to trusts in the past and later found problems with them. I am not a lawyer but I can guess that if you get in trouble or they decide they want to get you for something they will take a much harder look at the trust.

For whatever it's worth. I'm not qualified or learned enough to know what it is worth, I just simply know enough to know that the risk is not zero.

A trust is like a bulletproof vest with just one layer of Kevlar. The "test" of whether it works isn't whether you can successfully order one on the Internet using your credit card, or whether it shows up at your door, or whether it fits when you try it on. The test is whether it will protect you when someone is motivated to kill you.

A trust has zero back-up protection, it succeeds or fails entirely with the paperwork. That's one reason I provide corporations and LLC's for my NFA clients, if I can't persuade them to get the transfer in their own names and save the money entirely.

An LLC or a corp is created by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and once they stamp your paperwork and enter your info in their registry of entities, your entity exists, and that is the protection that matters. Your personal possession of a registered NFA firearm is entirely dependent on the validity of the entity, and your LLC or corp IS VALID once registered, unless you do something like move away without notifying the Commonwealth of the entity's new address.

A trust can and will fail if the paperwork is defective, and there's no second layer of protection. I think a trust is the wrong vehicle for most NFA purchasers, and an amateur trust is a terrible idea. These NFA trusts have been franchised across the country by lawyers who needed correction about basic NFA terminology, so I'd look at even those lawyer-created trusts carefully. But slapping together your own trust, then betting the value of your expensive NFA collection, and betting your unblemished criminal history, and betting your personal freedom and your family's financial future on this jerry-rigged POS, is the worst of all possible worlds.

Criminal defense lawyers will most likely charge you more for the initial consultation than you'd pay for any LLC, corp, or franchised trust document. And the defense fees will continue, and you won't have any choice about paying when ATF or Homeland Security or the FBI or your local cops are motivated to bring you down.

[cds_arms]

Geeze you guys make this sounds like rocket science. It's a revocable living trust. A trust is legally allowed to own NFA weapons. So it you have a valid trust, what's the problem? PA has no 'special' laws regarding registered trusts or anything, so your notarized trust makes it valid. The BATFE reviewed the trust for validity, and they sent you your stamp. From my research (I'm not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night), the most important bad thing that could happen is when you are incapacitated/dead, your sucessor trustees will have a hard time transferring the weapons at which point the BATFE can simply seize the weapons. Unless someone can provide proof instead of simply saying "it's a bad idea", I sleep peacefully at night... Not starting a pissing match, but that's my opinion....

[Maryland_Shooter]

I'd like to add to that.

Just because you think "it works" does not make it valid. I see "it works" too many times in this thread. The ATF approving a Form 1 or Form 4 does not mean your trust is real. They have approved transfers to trusts in the past and later found problems with them. I am not a lawyer but I can guess that if you get in trouble or they decide they want to get you for something they will take a much harder look at the trust.

For whatever it's worth. I'm not qualified or learned enough to know what it is worth, I just simply know enough to know that the risk is not zero.

Really - I hear that all the time along with a sad story, sung along with the sound of a man at a tinny piano in parlor.

So trot out some of these said invalid Trusts? I'd like to hear a few - actually I'd like to hear even one.

[ungawa]

Really - I hear that all the time along with a sad story, sung along with the sound of a man at a tinny piano in parlor.

So trot out some of these said invalid Trusts? I'd like to hear a few - actually I'd like to hear even one.

I'm going to keep this simple for you. I am not arguing with you. I am not saying trusts are a bad idea. YOU saying trusts got transfers approved, and therefore they "work," does not make the trust valid. That is all. I think people should realize that before they use your sample trust. Your sample trust has withstood ATF transfers, which is not much when it comes to legal scrutiny.

If YOU want to argue that a sucessful ATF transfer PROVES a trust is real, then go ahead. I won't argue with you because I don't know anything about the subject.

[Maryland_Shooter]

I'm going to keep this simple for you. I am not arguing with you. I am not saying trusts are a bad idea. YOU saying trusts got transfers approved, and therefore they "work," does not make the trust valid. That is all. I think people should realize that before they use your sample trust. Your sample trust has withstood ATF transfers, which is not much when it comes to legal scrutiny.

If YOU want to argue that a sucessful ATF transfer PROVES a trust is real, then go ahead. I won't argue with you because I don't know anything about the subject.

Use it or don't - I got no incentive either way.

So - not a single example of a Trust gone awry. Makes a lousy claim without a single case. I mean NOT A SINGLE ONE - ZERO.

Same story everywhere I go - lots of talk and nary a scrap of evidence.

No argument, you have no facts to argue

[1911carry]

I have modified this trust and plan on using it for my NFA trust! However I am having it reviewed by an attorney this week. I will post back what they say! It will be nice to know it is sound! Thanks maryland shooter for posting!

[Maryland_Shooter]

I have modified this trust and plan on using it for my NFA trust! However I am having it reviewed by an attorney this week. I will post back what they say! It will be nice to know it is sound! Thanks maryland shooter for posting!

You must be the 50th person to say this and not a single one has ever posted a thing. Not saying you won't; however, I was told it would be reviewed by lawyers, judges, etc . . . never heard a thing.

Does that mean it was A-OK? Does that mean they are being held in GITMO? Damned if I know.

Even some lawyers with an interest in selling their Trusts never said anything was specifically wrong with mine . . . . IIRC one guy stated he had reservations about use and devaluation of Trust property (wear and tear on a suppressor for instance).

Since it is me and the rest when I drop dead, I am not too concerned with them getting twisted over my using my, 'er I mean Trust property while I am the guy who controls the Trust.

This thing has been posted and circulated a long time. I have no idea how many people used it. I do know that wait times have increased at ATF and that may be, in part, due to the fact they are reviewing Trusts for validity. They have always done so in the past, but now "NFA Trusts" are the flavor of the day it seems.

So many non-signing CLEOs really are driving this whole thing.

In any case, best wishes to you, PLEASE do let us all know the opinion of the lawyer. Worst case, he has a framework and can tailor the document to fit your specific circumstances.

[ungawa]

So many non-signing CLEOs really are driving this whole thing.

The LEO signature requirement should be gone from the new forms very soon.

Anybody looking into creating one of these entities to get around LEO signature should look into this and decide whether or not to wait it out. I don't have a horse in the race so I am not following it closely. But it sounds like it has been approved and is simply a matter of the printed form itself going through GAO before it is released. Again, not following closely myself, check yourself if it matters to you.

[cds_arms]

Yessir, if the LEO signature goes away, the NFA business will get that much easier...

[nfafan]

<snip>

So many non-signing CLEOs really are driving this whole thing.

<snip>

That is still just so hard to believe.

This was their OUT for restricting/slowing down/making it more difficult to get.

Can't believe they would be behind dropping the CLEO signature req't. Ghost of Reagan - yes, CLEOs - no.

Maybe the whole Trust and LLC stuff made them throw in the towel.

Wow. If true, gotta sell a kidney soon for a new toy.