Question about "Flash Mob" Defense.

[N8TIVE]

First let me say "Long Time Listener, First Time Caller". I have been a fan and follower of the forum for awhile, but couldn't really find the answers/ideas I was searching for without asking myself. So I figured it might be time to join the fam.

Last summer I found myself in the middle of one of these flash mobs at JFK Plaza aka "Love Park". Luckily this one did not turn violent but came very close,
and I couldn't help but think "Wow I really had no idea what to do if it did turn violent." Now I know it sometimes might be easy to read these reports and think you would, but even with a fair share of training under my belt and a pretty level head, I was faced with some dilemmas that continue to haunt me. Within seconds my safe 5-6ft radius without contact became a shoulder to shoulder situation (imagine front row of a concert). I found myself with little to no room to draw above waist, 7 round limit, no sight on possible attackers returning fire (we have to except the fact they might be armed as well), and a serious risk of being trampled if shots were fired.

Again, luckily nothing happened but it left me thinking. What really is the right course of action? Does anyone have any training dealing with something of this caliber? Any thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.

[comsubin61]

To me the answer is very simple. If I feel that my life, or that of my loved one's, is in jeopardy and having no other option, I will fire upon those that are the threat before that option is taken away from me. That is decision I made when I purchased my first gun 32 years ago and lived by ever since. Having a military pst with fighting experience also helps, but I believe that one must set their engagements parameters at the time they decide to arm themselves, otherwise what is the point?

[twoguns]

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is this:
DON'T BE THERE!
It may seem like an oversimplification but if things look like they may turn bad where you happen to be, it is time to get out of there.

You are correct. Drawing a gun in the scenarios that have been described may likely not even be possible and could possibly make things even worse. Shooting an innocent bystander or having your gun taken away from you are things that could happen in these types of clashes.

[N8TIVE]

To me the answer is very simple. If I feel that my life, or that of my loved one's, is in jeopardy and having no other option, I will fire upon those that are the threat before that option is taken away from me. That is decision I made when I purchased my first gun 32 years ago and lived by ever since. Having a military pst with fighting experience also helps, but I believe that one must set their engagements parameters at the time they decide to arm themselves, otherwise what is the point?

I'm sorry maybe my question wasn't that detailed. I am more or less asking others with training in somewhat relative situations (based on our knowledge of the past incidents via news descriptions) how you would handle the situation tactically. How would you defend in a situation in which you were shoulder to shoulder with both innocents and attackers, with limited vision, ammo, and escape.

[algoesfast]

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is this:
DON'T BE THERE!

I agree. In these trouble times we find ourselves in. Keeping away from places where large crowds gather is a bad idea. I will be sticking to less likely mob areas.

Forgot: welcome to the forum

[streaker69]

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is this:
DON'T BE THERE!
It may seem like an oversimplification but if things look like they may turn bad where you happen to be, it is time to get out of there.

I agree, the best way to win is not to play.

Either that or take off, nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

[comsubin61]

I'm sorry maybe my question wasn't that detailed. I am more or less asking others with training in somewhat relative situations (based on our knowledge of the past incidents via news descriptions) how you would handle the situation tactically. How would you defend in a situation in which you were shoulder to shoulder with both innocents and attackers, with limited vision, ammo, and escape.

Self defense, I am assuming your are refeering to it, is a progression of analisis and decisions. Although you use the word " limited" you still giving yourself the option of escape. If that is available then you should take any evasive opportunities you have. If escape is not longer an option to you, then you only have two options left: 1) Do nothing other then pray and 2) defend yourself. In case of the first option, the only thing you have is pray that they will not hurt you too much. In the second option you will have to analize the situation and see if is there room for a physichal fight, assuming that you know how and that the opponents number allows for it. Another option is to draw your gun and defend yourself. If you are lucky perhaps just the presentation of the weapon is enough to avoid any further actions but maybe not, then you will have to be prepared to take a life to defend yourself. These are all decision that you have to make. I made mine, hence the previous response. I did understand your question, perhaps I did not explain myself. If I missed any other options please let me know. I am not someone that wants to take a life by any means and I will ty to avoid it to the best of my abilities, pride be damn, but by the same token I am not going to be some punk victim, he is going to be the statistic, that I'll garantee it.

[Bravo Whiskey]

I agree, the best way to win is not to play.

Either that or take off, nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

You can't Make that decission, your just a "Grunt"

But I also agree that not being there is a win and I suspect many folks have thought the same way as the Phila Mayor would never had come out so strong without the business community screaming about the down turn in eveing business.

[chauncey]

i'd say get your back against something solid, working your way toward an exit or escape route. if you have to wield a weapon, don't extend your arm, keep it close to your body so you can't be easily disarmed.

IANAL or a self-defense "expert" but that is what i would do.

[Valorius]

First let me say "Long Time Listener, First Time Caller". I have been a fan and follower of the forum for awhile, but couldn't really find the answers/ideas I was searching for without asking myself. So I figured it might be time to join the fam.

Last summer I found myself in the middle of one of these flash mobs at JFK Plaza aka "Love Park". Luckily this one did not turn violent but came very close,
and I couldn't help but think "Wow I really had no idea what to do if it did turn violent." Now I know it sometimes might be easy to read these reports and think you would, but even with a fair share of training under my belt and a pretty level head, I was faced with some dilemmas that continue to haunt me. Within seconds my safe 5-6ft radius without contact became a shoulder to shoulder situation (imagine front row of a concert). I found myself with little to no room to draw above waist, 7 round limit, no sight on possible attackers returning fire (we have to except the fact they might be armed as well), and a serious risk of being trampled if shots were fired.

Again, luckily nothing happened but it left me thinking. What really is the right course of action? Does anyone have any training dealing with something of this caliber? Any thoughts and ideas would be appreciated.

If you're trapped from escaping, and if it's possible...get your back to a wall or in a corner. Somewhere that reduces the ability of people to sucker you from behind. If you can find concealment, that'd be great too. Better not to be seen at all.

Your experience illustrates the usefulness of a laser for aiming since you cant get the gun up to eye height for aiming. In a swirling mass of humanity, it would be nice to KNOW where that bullet's gonna go when you're firing from the hip, as opposed to guessing.

The intimidation effect of the beam could also possibly make a shoot situation unnecessary.

Maybe...

IMO every scenario is different, so there is never any one right thing to do, and in some cases, there is simply no "right" course of action. Every option sucks, so you just have to pick one and act.

To me, decisiveness and boldness of action is the key to seizing control of any encounter.