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January 10th, 2008, 06:15 AM #1Banned
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Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
In the interest of not hijacking a news article, the discussion is continued here.
Clearly this subject has been broached before. We're looking for responses specific to the following set of circumsances presented in the home invasion documented below.
Here is the argument
Originally Posted by MarcS
My response
Originally Posted by MarcSLast edited by MarcS; January 10th, 2008 at 07:30 AM.
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January 10th, 2008, 07:29 AM #2
Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
I feel that this topic has no real answer! In my situation, I would prefer the 12ga simply because I live in close proximity to my neighbors. Our houses are less than 10 feet apart! If I were to start blasting with my AR15 in the middle of the night...rounds would surly perforate the BG and penetrate the wall possibly landing in my neighbors' houses! The 12ga would be just as effective but with less penetration of walls. It seems to me that the hit pattern of a 12ga would be more forgiving for a startled, nervous home owner that was waken from his/her sleep also. Just my $.02 cents...like I said...there really is no wrong answer!
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January 10th, 2008, 07:46 AM #3Banned
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Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
I've heared this argument before, but it's simply not the case. Buckshot will penetrate interior walls with ease just as a 223 will, however, 223 actualy has less of an overpenetration chance in humans and you are only dealing with a single projectile. That being said, the energy of buckshot that has passed through an attacker probably isn't sufficient to penetrate much else. Basically, if it has enough energy to kill a human, it has enough to penetrate several layers of walls if you miss.
The pattern of a 12ga isn't that forgiving at home defense distances, it's about the size of your hand or smaller. Think 1" of speard per yard and i like using Hornady TAP which is an incredibly tight patterning load. However, if you are concerned with rounds making it into the neighbors house, why send a pattern downrange where the chance of some of the projectiles missing the target is greater?
Basically, this argument has been analyzed extensively by the law enforcement community and departments are switching to 223 partol rifles en-mass.Last edited by MarcS; January 10th, 2008 at 07:50 AM.
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January 10th, 2008, 09:09 AM #4Grand Member
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Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
The only practical advantage the SG has over the AR15 is that its terminal performance doesn't rely on an impact velocity threshold. OTOH, TAP and MK262 Mod 1 possess terminal performance significantly exceeding that of M193.
The advantage of buckshot is multiple hits on one target, not multiple hits on multiple targets. IOW, shotguns aren't "street sweepers" in spite of any romanticism associated with its history in warfare. The exception being the "trench broom" moniker but that derives from the fact that troops in trenches were clustered together with little space to maneuver. Threats in your home may not afford you the same opportunity.
In reality they should be aimed just like any other long gun. This is confirmed by the fact that there has been an awful lot of effort over the years into making defensive shotguns pattern as tight as possible.
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January 10th, 2008, 09:44 AM #5
Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
Why bother with buckshot? A full load of 2's, 4's or 5's is going to stop just about anything. Not too much problem with over penetration either.
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January 10th, 2008, 09:50 AM #6Grand Member
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Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
Here's a useful quote from Gabe Suarez, when asked the same question (SG or rifle):
For general purposes, I'd definitely take a rifle.
The shotgun comes into its niche in "expected" very close range fights, in reduced light where the tempo of events does not favor traditional marksmanship principles, and where devastating damage needs to be inflicted in as short a time as possible with minimum number of shots. Added assets are the nature of the pattern and ammunition lends to hitting adversaries that might otherwise not be hit with a single projectlie, and the rapidly decreasing velocity tends to minimize collateral damage that may result from rifle fire.
Can you do these things with a rifle? Yes...but not as well as with a shotgun.
ETA: I also note that I was at the same shotgun class as MarcS, and I, too, was a little disappointed to discover that the shotgun was not especially easy to use reliably under stress.Last edited by dgg9; January 10th, 2008 at 09:54 AM.
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January 10th, 2008, 09:55 AM #7Banned
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Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
Even M193 out of a 16" barrel only looses significant performance well beyond the effective range of a shotgun. In the home, at 10-20' the point is moot and, as i said, both produce devastating terminal effects. I can see where you're coming from as far as an entry team that may use SBR's, but SBR's are not in common use as defensive long guns with civilians.
That's not entirely correct. Anything smaller than #1 buckshot really doesn't meet minimum standards of penetration. #4 is marginal but i guess acceptable if you were living in a super thin walled apartment....though it will still pass through a couple walls. Anything that will sufficiently penetrate a human will penetrate a wall (several actually) if you miss. As for overpenetration, i don't consider it a major issue with most rounds as they don't carry much energy after passing through a human target.
Not just that, but it was S L O W and generally unweildy. I transitioned my sidearm far more often than i did in the rifle class, an option that wouldn't be available if i were in my pajamas.Last edited by MarcS; January 10th, 2008 at 10:11 AM.
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January 10th, 2008, 10:09 AM #8Grand Member
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Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
If you were well practiced in it, I can see the niche use, in pro-active "on offense" situations where you would indeed have sidearm and all other gear.
They are damned heavy, though. I short stroked a couple times in the class, and once fed in a backwards shell in a shooting string.
Realistically, though, for the home defender, it wouldn't be my first choice UNLESS you were willing to practice a bit, or unless you had really severe wall-penetration problems and opted for #4 shot or something like that (a compromise, to be sure)....or if money was such a dealbreaker that a $150 pump was all you could afford.
For me, though, living where all rifle ranges are not close and practice is limited, it's hard to find time to do justice to rifles AND shotguns in any meaningful way. In my tall and narrow city townhouse, with small rooms and a lot of stairs, my Glock would always be first choice in any scenario where I felt compelled to move around the house. As for a "last stand" situation, I would sit at the top of my staircase with the AR 15 and full mag and wait.Last edited by dgg9; January 10th, 2008 at 10:12 AM.
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January 10th, 2008, 10:13 AM #9
Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
I think it depends on way too many things... The defender, the intruder, ammo, the particular design of gun, training/experience, surprise, location, etc..
I'll challenge anyone with a full automatic battle rifle/carbine to come up my steps as I stand at the top with my double barreled 12ga hammered coachgun.
Experience and/or training I think is the biggest factor as to which is better. Some people cant manually operate a pumpgun under stress. Where as some people can shoot from the hips or extended arms a 12ga SxS and hit what they intend every time.
Both, a self-loader and a shotgun are quite capable of doing the job - just that the defender should train or practice to acquire the skills to use either or both under such stressful conditions.
I personally would choose the shotgun for hallway to sub-25yrd duties.
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January 10th, 2008, 10:16 AM #10Banned
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Re: Self-loading Rifle vs Shotgun under specific circumstances.
Agreed.
My shotgun has really become a safe queen since that class. If i get a chance to get out with a long gun it's my AR every time. Why spend valuable time mastering a niche weapon when your general purpose weapon is pretty much just as good if not better for your situation?Last edited by MarcS; January 10th, 2008 at 10:33 AM.
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