Hello, & Question about carrying at private university

[TransAmConvert]

First off I'd like to say hello to all of you. My name is Mark and I've just recently turned 21. I've always enjoyed shooting since childhood and now that it's legal I would definitely like to start exercising my rights. My CCW is pending and I'll be getting a pistol as soon as I find one that I like and can afford. Being that I'm in college, this is a big deal. Possibly looking at an FEG PA-63, but I digress.

I'm a student at CMU, and they have a strict policy of not having weapons on campus (http://www.cmu.edu/policies/document...lyWeapons.html) despite the fact that almost weekly students are robbed/assaulted, often at gunpoint, on and near campus. Anyone reading the crime and incident section of the school newspaper is aware of this (thetartan.org). Students are even assaulted in the university center, so even the main part of campus is not totally safe.

My question is, in breif: Can they do that? I realize that no legal penalties would result from legally carrying, but still, I don't want to be expelled either. At the same time, there is a very real threat here as college students are seen as easy prey. While im not paranoid or anything and I fully realize that my chances of being involved are slim, I still feel that my rights should not be infringed in this manner. I am also concerned that since where I live is property owned by the school, even having a firearm would be a violation of this policy. Seems to me like it is a similar situation to a landlord telling me I could not have a weapon in my apartment.

Finally, I am also very interested in recieving some sort of formal training. I know the basics, so an NRA class is almost moot (though never having been to one I guess I cant say that). I looked at fireinstitute, LFI and others, but frankly the cost precludes any of these as real possibilities for me. So if anyone has a suggestion, I'm all ears.
Thanks,
--Mark

[dmg1969]

Mark, this question has been gone over before in other threads. I believe that, since it is PRIVATE property, they can. And, like you said, violating that policy could have serious ramifications for you. It's not a violation of your rights for someone to disallow the possession of firearms on their private property.

Dave G.

[mjd932]

I go to Pitt and went through the same thing. While it is legal to carry a properly registered pistol with a CCP there, the school can can still expel you if you're outed. Personally, I'm to close to finishing to screw up my graduation. It does suck but unfortunately you have to play by their rules and they have you by the cajones.

EDIT: Welcome to the site!

[greyhouse]

You have to remember that private owners have a lot of power in what is allowed on their property. It's a personal choice you will have to make. It's not illegal to carry on campus if you have a license to carry. However, they are well within their rights to kick you out of school if you were ever found out.

I don't agree with it either, but I guess that's life.

[SigForLife]

Ok, I have read their policy, and there are defintely some protections which you can use: For instance, they say any folding pocket knife is legal, so go buy yourself a nice Emerson. They are not spring loaded, but are designed in such a way that when you pull it out of your pocket (in the proper fashion) the blade automatically opens. Our SEALs carry Emersons. Furthermore you could buy yourself a nice small high output flashlight. People might laugh, but you can blind someone and get an easy 3 seconds on them if you put in theirs eyes. Lastly, and one which would fall into a grey area is the following: One exception is Any trained security personel when approved in advance by the police chief or designee. Hence, if you were to take PA ACT 235 (this is a security guard certification course) and have a concealed carry permit from the police chief, I believe, you could probably get by, since you would then be trained security personel (Act 235), and have been approved by the police chief via your permit to carry and Act 235 which is a state cert. Now this isn't legal advice, but definitely is a hole in the policy. Also, so long as they never found your gun during normal classtime or such, could you imagine the fall out to the school if you were attacked, pulled your weapon in defense, did so in an appropriate manner, and then they kicked you out for it??? Something tells me their PR people would be telling the board to side stepping the issue.

P.S. if you really want to cover your ass, call Attorney Jon Mirowitz, and discuss the issue with him. Of course, this means you will have out of pocket expenses, but you will have sound legal advice that will keep your mind at ease. I just attended a "Firearms in Estates" seminar, where he was teaching, and he really knows his stuff. 215-324-0603

[TransAmConvert]

I can understand that they can pretty much dictate what happens on campus proper, but what about in my own living area? While it is technically their property, aren't there some 'tenants rights' involved? For instance, I'm fairly certain that they need a warrant to enter my personal room and do a search, etc

Not carrying everyday doesn't bother me as there are other options as have been mentioned. However, I would still like to be able to keep a weapon to go shooting on weekends etc. without fear of getting the boot. Although if it were in my room I doubt they would ever come across it anyhow. Still... It just seems like a bad policy at a school situated between oakland and schenley, two areas known for their high criminal potential.

[SigForLife]

You really need to seek legal advice, since there a numerous questions. For instance, you don;t actually sign a rental agreement. Furthermore, courts have held that lockers can be searched by schools without a warrant, even though the student in some instances had to pay for the locker. If I were a betting man, I would believe that the school does have a legal right to search your room, and most schools have policies on how this is to occur. Aka usually it requires the headmaster, dean or such equivalent, and several other individuals so there are numerous people to testify to what occured. I know a property law teacher, and I will run it by him to see whether it would fall under landlord/tenant or not; however, even in landlord/tenant the landlord almost always retains the right (through the lease agreement) to come inspect the property...of course then you get into what the definition of inspect is...

[ChamberedRound]

I can understand that they can pretty much dictate what happens on campus proper, but what about in my own living area? While it is technically their property, aren't there some 'tenants rights' involved? For instance, I'm fairly certain that they need a warrant to enter my personal room and do a search, etc

Not carrying everyday doesn't bother me as there are other options as have been mentioned. However, I would still like to be able to keep a weapon to go shooting on weekends etc. without fear of getting the boot. Although if it were in my room I doubt they would ever come across it anyhow. Still... It just seems like a bad policy at a school situated between oakland and schenley, two areas known for their high criminal potential.

TAC,

I'm not a lawyer, so take this FWIW.

I think you're right on their needing a warrant to search your dorm/apt/etc. However, this situation would be no different than if you rented an apartment and a landlord told you "no pets". The landlord's not allowed to enter your apartment to check (unless they have a warrant), but if they find that you're violating their rules, the terms of the lease, etc., then they have every right to kick you out.

I would think the same is true for on-campus housing. The College/University is essentially the landlord, and if they find out you're breaking their rules, they can't arrest you if you're carrying legally, but they can expel you. In fact, you may want to do some research on the the schools charter, rules, and agreements you signed, etc. I'd bet according to their rules you're not even allowed to POSSESS a weapon on the property. Again, not illegal, but potentially grounds for expulsion.

As others have mentioned, this is a choice we ALL have to make when contemplating carrying on private property.

[The Drew]

The point that MUST be hammered home here is that while private property owners do have rights, They DO NOT have the ability to violate civil rights. This debate is similar to the employer debate.

What rights private property owners DO have is the ability to have you expelled from their property should they so choose. This includes firing from a job, or being expelled from school.

They do not have the right to keep you from defending yourself or your property, They do not have the right to invalidate a CCW permit.

The real question is whether state run universities can enact rules that prohibit legally owned and carried firearms. Since they are entities of the state NOT private property. These universities include...

The System is a composition of the following 14 universities in Pennsylvania:

Bloomsburg University of Pennsylvania
California University of Pennsylvania
Cheyney University of Pennsylvania
Clarion University of Pennsylvania
East Stroudsburg University of Pennsylvania
Edinboro University of Pennsylvania
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
Kutztown University of Pennsylvania
Lock Haven University of Pennsylvania
Mansfield University of Pennsylvania
Millersville University of Pennsylvania
Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania
Slippery Rock University of Pennsylvania
West Chester University of Pennsylvania

[billamj]

Why are we rehashing this? You can't carry in a courthouse and it is the exact same concept.