Philly police faulted for shootings

[larrymeyer]

http://www.examiner.com/a-1138099~Ph...al_damage.html

Philly Police Faulted for Shootings
Filed under: PHILADELPHIA , MARYCLAIRE DALE , Philadelphia Police Shootings

Philadelphia Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson is seen at a news conference in Philadelphia, Thursday, Jan. 3, 2008. Johnson ends a tenure marked by concerns about violent crime and shootings by police, including a police shooting New Year's Eve that left four people inside a home, including a child, wounded.

Jan 4, 2008 10:53 AM (5 hrs ago) By MARYCLAIRE DALE, AP

For the second year in a row, city officials are being asked how police officers responding to celebratory New Year's Eve gunfire ended up shooting innocent bystanders.

This year, police chasing an armed reveler shot into a house filled with partygoers, leaving one man in a coma, a second wounded and a 9-year-old boy with a graze wound to the chest.

A year ago, police fatally shot a man in the back of the head as he tried to flee when neighbors started shooting guns into the air.

The latest shootings came as Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson ends a six-year tenure marked by public concern about gun violence and the police response to it.

Johnson has repeatedly been asked to answer questions about the department's use of deadly force, including two months ago when officers killed a distraught teenager wielding a clothes iron. City police fatally shot 16 people in 2007 and 20 the previous year.

"It seems that there's too much of a policy to shoot first and worry about the outcome later," said Bruce Ginsburg, an attorney representing two of the shooting victims. "It puts everybody in the city in danger."

Johnson, who retires Friday after 43 years with the department, defended his officers while promising an investigation of the New Year's Eve shootings.

"It's hard for you to say when an officer has a gun pointed at him, is he reacting too fast? We had one (officer) killed, we had six others who were shot" this year, he said Thursday at his final news conference.

Johnson's replacement, Charles Ramsey, has pledged to address the number of police shootings. Ramsey has noted that in his tenure as police chief of Washington, the number of such shootings fell by 77 percent.

Philadelphia police acknowledged this week that they arrested an innocent partygoer early Tuesday, based on his resemblance to the suspect who they say fired shots in the air, pointed his weapon at police and ran toward the string of row homes. Authorities later charged a 21-year-old man, who was apparently shot in the arm but did not seek treatment.

The party's host, Clinton Rogers, 30, told reporters that bullets started flying through the front door at him, friends and relatives just after midnight. Parents jumped in front of their children and two men who were shot ran upstairs, trailing blood.

The spray of bullets left Abebe Isaac, 33, in a medically induced coma after he was shot in the face. Michael Johnson, 32, remains stable after being shot in the side. Nyger Page, 9, was treated and released after suffering the graze wound.

Ginsburg represents Page's family and also that of Bryan Jones, who was shot to death by police as 2007 arrived.

Jones, 20, had set out on foot in the waning moments of 2006 to retrieve a young nephew from a party and was fleeing gunfire when he was shot.

Police have said officers responding to a report of gunfire were fired at by people on a porch and that an officer fired at Jones when he saw him reaching for his waistband. Jones, however, had no weapon and no criminal history, Ginsburg said.

"Nothing was learned about the unnecessary death of a young man last year," he said.

Ginsburg plans to file a wrongful death suit on behalf of Jones' family.

[larrymeyer]

http://www.fox23.com/news/national/s...ece9495&rss=79

Philadelphia police criticized for New Year's Eve shootings
Last Update: 7:48 am

PHILADELPHIA (AP) - For the second year in a row, city officials are being asked how police officers responding to celebratory New Year's Eve gunfire ended up shooting innocent bystanders.

This year, police chasing an armed reveler shot into a house filled with partygoers, leaving one man in a coma, a second wounded and a 9-year-old boy with a graze wound to the chest.

A year ago, police fatally shot a man in the back of the head as he tried to flee when neighbors started shooting guns into the air.

The latest shootings came as Police Commissioner Sylvester Johnson ends a six-year tenure marked by public concern about gun violence and the police response to it.

Johnson has repeatedly been asked to answer questions about the department's use of deadly force, including two months ago when officers killed a distraught teenager wielding a clothes iron.

City police fatally shot at least 16 people in 2007 and 20 the previous year.

"It seems that there's too much of a policy to shoot first and worry about the outcome later," said Bruce Ginsburg, an attorney representing two of the shooting victims. "It puts everybody in the city in danger."

Johnson, who retires Friday after 43 years with the department, defended his officers while promising an investigation of the New Year's Eve shootings.

"It's hard for you to say when an officer has a gun pointed at him, is he reacting too fast? We had one (officer) killed, we had six others who were shot" this year, he said Thursday at his final news conference.

Johnson's replacement, Charles Ramsey, has pledged to address the number of police shootings. Ramsey has noted that in his tenure as police chief of Washington, D.C., the number of such shootings fell by 77 percent.

Philadelphia police acknowledged this week that they arrested an innocent partygoer early Tuesday, based on his resemblance to the suspect who they say fired shots in the air, pointed his weapon at police and ran toward the string of row homes.

Authorities later charged a 21-year-old man, who was apparently shot in the arm but did not seek treatment.

The party's host, Clinton Rogers, 30, told reporters that bullets started flying through the front door at him, friends and relatives just after midnight. Parents jumped in front of their children and two men who were shot ran upstairs, trailing blood.

The spray of bullets left Abebe Isaac, 33, in a medically induced coma after he was shot in the face. Michael Johnson, 32, remains stable after being shot in the side. Nyger Page, 9, was treated and released after suffering the graze wound.

Ginsburg represents Page's family and also that of Bryan Jones, who was shot to death by police as 2007 arrived.

Jones, 20, had set out on foot in the waning moments of 2006 to retrieve a young nephew from a party and was fleeing gunfire when he was shot.

Police have said officers responding to a report of gunfire were fired at by people on a porch and that an officer fired at Jones when he saw him reaching for his waistband. Jones, however, had no weapon and no criminal history, Ginsburg said.

"Nothing was learned about the unnecessary death of a young man last year," he said.

Ginsburg plans to file a wrongful death suit on behalf of Jones' family

[Statkowski]

Only the police should have guns?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080104/...lice_shootings

PHILADELPHIA - For the second year in a row, city officials are being asked how police officers responding to celebratory New Year's Eve gunfire ended up shooting innocent bystanders.

This year, police chasing an armed reveler shot into a house filled with partygoers, leaving one man in a coma, a second wounded and a 9-year-old boy with a graze wound to the chest.

[Philadelphia]

If you hang with playas, you're in the game.

I couldn't care less for the bystanders not because of their innocence or culpability but because if you hang out with thugs and bangers, you can't complain when someone gets hurt.

[Montanya]

If you hang with playas, you're in the game.

I couldn't care less for the bystanders not because of their innocence or culpability but because if you hang out with thugs and bangers, you can't complain when someone gets hurt.

My only issue with that is the guy runs into a party. Who knows if anyone there even knew him or if he just saw a house party going on and runs inside. In that case, no one in there is "in the game" they are just at a party when a criminal runs inside and the police shoot at him and like often...miss. Ok I had to edit this post to add WTF? The article states the police fired THROUGH the front door, so the idiots didn't even have line of sight in a house full of people. Sigh, WTF is going on there? I know the violence in Philly is bad but hell, at least be able to see the target.

[mauser]

If you hang with playas, you're in the game.

I couldn't care less for the bystanders not because of their innocence or culpability but because if you hang out with thugs and bangers, you can't complain when someone gets hurt.

To a certain extent that's true, but what about the 9 year old who was grazed? Was it his choice to be where he was?
The parents are responsible for where they take their children. Any time a kid is injured through negligence, regardless of whether it's the parents taking kids into unsafe circumstances, negligence on the part of the LEO, or pure accident, the kids truly are innocent victims. As far as the circumstances leading up to and pertaining directly to the shots fired in this particular incident and the responsibility of the people involved, I don't know enough about the particulars to pass judgment. I do have empathy for the child, it wasn't his choice and it wasn't his fault.

[Philadelphia]

My only issue with that is the guy runs into a party. Who knows if anyone there even knew him or if he just saw a house party going on and runs inside. In that case, no one in there is "in the game" they are just at a party when a criminal runs inside and the police shoot at him and like often...miss. Ok I had to edit this post to add WTF? The article states the police fired THROUGH the front door, so the idiots didn't even have line of sight in a house full of people. Sigh, WTF is going on there? I know the violence in Philly is bad but hell, at least be able to see the target.

They all knew each other. You're right; if some stranger runs into your house and the cops just start shooting through the door, something has gone wrong. That's not what happened in this case.

As one indication of how things work in some parts of philly -- the cops shot through a closed door. I can tell you why the door was open when Mr. perp ran in and shut afterward.

[larrymeyer]

Check out this thread for the full stories on this I posted it a while ago

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/lounge-10...shootings.html

[Autonomous]

They all knew each other. You're right; if some stranger runs into your house and the cops just start shooting through the door, something has gone wrong. That's not what happened in this case.

As one indication of how things work in some parts of philly -- the cops shot through a closed door. I can tell you why the door was open when Mr. perp ran in and shut afterward.

"Philadelphia police acknowledged this week that they arrested an innocent partygoer early Tuesday, based on his resemblance to the suspect who they say fired shots in the air, pointed his weapon at police and ran toward the string of row homes. Authorities later charged a 21-year-old man, who was apparently shot in the arm but did not seek treatment."

I'm not so sure they all knew each other. Even if they did there was apparently a mistaken ID arrest. That mistaken arrest means they there wasn't a positive id on the subject in the first place. So if you cant id the man in the aftermath blindly shooting into a house full of people does not seem like such a good idea.
If the door was closed it was irresponsible to shoot through it. I know it was open when the perp ran in it but it was closed when they shot through it. One never knows what is on the other side...
My hart goes out to the philly cops who were wounded or killed last year. It is a tough job that I don't want.
-A

[ExCopInPhilly]

They all knew each other. You're right; if some stranger runs into your house and the cops just start shooting through the door, something has gone wrong. That's not what happened in this case.

As one indication of how things work in some parts of philly -- the cops shot through a closed door. I can tell you why the door was open when Mr. perp ran in and shut afterward.

You are clearly a rambling half wit, and need to get facts before you type. Then you need to leave your pedantic covert racist thoughts at the door. The police were right and wrong in this case. #1 shooting is a last resort, any LEO knows that, #2 the person who was most seriously wounded was shot because he resembled someone else, not because he did anything, and #3 any shooting must be at presentation of clear threat, NO WEAPON, NO SHOOT.

If you could learn to read, then you would know that the Individual who was shot, was shot when he was returning from another house to retrieve a juvenile family member who was at another function down the street. Also, he was unarmed and didn't create any threat.

Any real LEO who has been in a shoot or not shoot situation knows that training and a clear head are the only ways to prevail. It is better to ensure that the shoot is justified than to take a number of clearly bad shots, and risk hitting and killing innocent people.

Sometimes it is much better to read and understand, than to just let your ignorance show. If you can't control your thoughts and assumptions of people better than you exhibit on this forum, then you are exactly the type of person who doesn't need a firearm, and your LTCF needs to be revoked, if you have one.