AR questions

[animalmother85]

Here are my two most recent, less then a month old.

[*Klutch*]

one of the ones I've shot is a RRA 20", it's nice to shoot at rest but I think I'm like the 16" for the maneuverability of the shorter barrel and the lighter weight.
Those are nice! Not yet for me though, I'm looking for more of a shorter distance in range 400 meters max.

[IronButt]

Yea I've been on DD website this morning and been watching some youtube videos on them. I'm really liking them and they are right in the range I'm looking for which makes it nice.
What makes them you choice?

I have a DDM4 V3, (Mid-length), & love it. It shoots any of my reloads, from 55-77gr accurately, & it's just a good solid gun.

Pretty much any of the guns from tier 1 mfgrs like Colt, BCM, or DD will serve you well, & the cost is about the same, or not much more than a Bushy, S&W, etc.

[phillyd2]

Sounds like we need to put together a local AR shoot so he can try a bunch before deciding. I have a Colt, Stag and mixed 16", M4 & 20" to offer for the cause

Sites like M4carbine, AR15.com, etc. are great but one can end up like a dog chasing its tail after a while.

[Noah_Zark]

My thoughts on the AR scene; opinions and outlook based on my perception and experience.

The AR platform is ubiquitous and IMO overly-commercialized. There are claims and counter-claims regarding lower receivers, upper receivers, barrels, small parts, gas tubes, front sight bases/gas blocks, BUIS, optics, rails, you name it. There are even more AR owners each with at least one AR, many with multiple examples, and all with their own personal opinions as to what is "best" in an AR. Don't think so? Just take a look at any multi-page thread at AR15.com or M4Carbine.net. If you peel away the layers of each thread's "onion," you will find that the majority of what is posted is subjectivity and opinion, or simply info parroted from some other internet board or You Tube video.

You can go two basic routes -- build or buy. There is a bewildering array of components out there, which brings you to make your post. Many small parts are quality-made, many are imported, and it's almost impossible to tell the difference just looking at them.

As for buying a ready-to-shoot AR, each manufacturer has multiple models with options and features. My head spins to think about it.

The worst thing to do is to fall prey to the "battle of the spec sheet" as I call it. It's all well and good to be knowledgeable about specs and who builds what to what spec, etc., but too many spec-quoting armchair "operators" get wrapped around the axle about what product's "MIL-spec" and what's not, and why everyone should buy this and not that; so much so that IMO it seems that people lose sight of the objective -- an accurate, functionally reliable weapon.

There are endless arguments about MPI barrels and who does 100% of their barrels and who sample-tests barrels. Likewise there are arguments about which magazine is "best." The problem is over-commercialization. Too many people are taking manufacturer claims as gospel and parroting it back in message boards and You Tube videos as Word. Is an MPI'd barrel critical to the average John Doe owner/shooter who can afford to buy the gun this month but not the ammo to shoot in it? No. Is Magnetic Particle Inspection important to the military, who expect many thousands of rounds to be fired from the weapon, mag after mag, over the course of what may amount to only weeks or months? Yes. If John Doe AR owner wants to spend the $$$ on an upper with an MPI'd barrel for "peace of mind" or "because <expert's name here> says so," that's his business and his money.

As for acquiring an AR cost-effectively, beware of the trap of buying components and assembling the gun you want. There is nothing wrong with that approach as long as you have decided firmly on what you want, and proceed accordingly. Self-builds sometimes take on a life of their own, and the owner/builder ends up with a continuing work in progress, spending more (even much more) than he would have for a quality ready-to-shoot AR from a reputable manufacturer. So decide first as to what you want, including all the bits and pieces, shipping charges, drive time/fuel cost -- put it all in a spreadsheet and then research it both ways -- build vs. buy -- to determine what I like to call the lowest Total Cost of Acquisition.

I'm a former Marine armorer (2111) from the 70s and 80s and can assemble M16s in my sleep. Probably have, come to think of it. When it came to acquiring a new AR, I decided what I wanted, did the research and the math, and ended up buying off the shelf S&W M&P15s and a Stag Model 1, all three M4geries with slim CAR handguards being the only added accessory. I bought them at price points that didn't make sense for me to build, once I added in shipping costs and fuel to the components that I felt were acceptable. But that's me.

While any AR assembled from any manufacturer's components will likely function, there are so many manufacturers out there and so many claims made that it is all but impossible to separate objective fact from subjective opinion and even fiction. Example: Some say chromed chamber, non-chromed bore. Some say chromed chamber and bore. Some say no chrome at all for barrels "for best accuracy." IMO, on practical basis a BG is just as dead if shot from an AR that groups 1 MOA or another AR with a non-chromed bore that delivers 0.5 MOA.

Likewise, that BG is just as dead if one AR had a rail system, and the other had conventional handguards. Or, both had rails but from different manufacturers, each with equally enthusiastic support from owners of the respective rails.

What you're after first and foremost is accuracy and reliable functionality. There are Olympic and Bushmaster ARs that are functionally reliable with acceptable accuracy. There have been reports of owners of Stags and S&Ws having problems, real or perceived.

I'm not painting a picture of "pay your money and take your chances," but I will stress that the old adage "you get what you pay for" definitely applies to ARs, in my opinion based on experience. You may do fine with a low-cost build with a DPMS lower and a Sherluk-assembled upper. You may not. You stand a better chance of acquiring an accurate, functionally reliable product from one of the higher-end manufacturers -- BCM, S&W, Colt, DD and even Stag are examples, IMO. I'm NOT saying that the most expensive option is the best. I'm saying that ARs from high-end manufacturers with good reputations are often the best bet, particularly if you shop around and time your purchase -- right now (June) is a great time to buy a gun because sales volume at gun shops is seasonally down, and with it cash flow. I've got great deals from local shops in May through Sept just by asking if there's any room in the price -- like the last S&W M&P15, standard M4 configuration, with detatch carry handle and std front sight base -- $750 OTD, a year before the Obama election scare got in full swing.

Just some points to ponder from a graybeard businessman with powder residue on his hands and oily dirt under his fingernails that's halfway to 114.

Best,

Noah

[*Klutch*]

Sounds like we need to put together a local AR shoot so he can try a bunch before deciding. I have a Colt, Stag and mixed 16", M4 & 20" to offer for the cause

Sites like M4carbine, AR15.com, etc. are great but one can end up like a dog chasing its tail after a while.

GREAT idea! I'm down for the cause with some ammo and some refreshments(1) afterward.
(1)referring to or providing beer.

[phillyd2]

GREAT idea! I'm down for the cause with some ammo and some refreshments(1) afterward.
(1)referring to or providing beer.

PM sent.............

[Xpertz]

Check Spikes Tacticle, well built rifles, uppers and lowers. Best buffers and tubes around. Reasonable prices and they do MPT. Very good 1 in 7 barrels.

[*Klutch*]

My thoughts on the AR scene; opinions and outlook based on my perception and experience.

The AR platform is ubiquitous and IMO overly-commercialized. There are claims and counter-claims regarding lower receivers, upper receivers, barrels, small parts, gas tubes, front sight bases/gas blocks, BUIS, optics, rails, you name it. There are even more AR owners each with at least one AR, many with multiple examples, and all with their own personal opinions as to what is "best" in an AR. Don't think so? Just take a look at any multi-page thread at AR15.com or M4Carbine.net. If you peel away the layers of each thread's "onion," you will find that the majority of what is posted is subjectivity and opinion, or simply info parroted from some other internet board or You Tube video.

You can go two basic routes -- build or buy. There is a bewildering array of components out there, which brings you to make your post. Many small parts are quality-made, many are imported, and it's almost impossible to tell the difference just looking at them.

As for buying a ready-to-shoot AR, each manufacturer has multiple models with options and features. My head spins to think about it.

The worst thing to do is to fall prey to the "battle of the spec sheet" as I call it. It's all well and good to be knowledgeable about specs and who builds what to what spec, etc., but too many spec-quoting armchair "operators" get wrapped around the axle about what product's "MIL-spec" and what's not, and why everyone should buy this and not that; so much so that IMO it seems that people lose sight of the objective -- an accurate, functionally reliable weapon.

There are endless arguments about MPI barrels and who does 100% of their barrels and who sample-tests barrels. Likewise there are arguments about which magazine is "best." The problem is over-commercialization. Too many people are taking manufacturer claims as gospel and parroting it back in message boards and You Tube videos as Word. Is an MPI'd barrel critical to the average John Doe owner/shooter who can afford to buy the gun this month but not the ammo to shoot in it? No. Is Magnetic Particle Inspection important to the military, who expect many thousands of rounds to be fired from the weapon, mag after mag, over the course of what may amount to only weeks or months? Yes. If John Doe AR owner wants to spend the $$$ on an upper with an MPI'd barrel for "peace of mind" or "because <expert's name here> says so," that's his business and his money.

As for acquiring an AR cost-effectively, beware of the trap of buying components and assembling the gun you want. There is nothing wrong with that approach as long as you have decided firmly on what you want, and proceed accordingly. Self-builds sometimes take on a life of their own, and the owner/builder ends up with a continuing work in progress, spending more (even much more) than he would have for a quality ready-to-shoot AR from a reputable manufacturer. So decide first as to what you want, including all the bits and pieces, shipping charges, drive time/fuel cost -- put it all in a spreadsheet and then research it both ways -- build vs. buy -- to determine what I like to call the lowest Total Cost of Acquisition.

I'm a former Marine armorer (2111) from the 70s and 80s and can assemble M16s in my sleep. Probably have, come to think of it. When it came to acquiring a new AR, I decided what I wanted, did the research and the math, and ended up buying off the shelf S&W M&P15s and a Stag Model 1, all three M4geries with slim CAR handguards being the only added accessory. I bought them at price points that didn't make sense for me to build, once I added in shipping costs and fuel to the components that I felt were acceptable. But that's me.

While any AR assembled from any manufacturer's components will likely function, there are so many manufacturers out there and so many claims made that it is all but impossible to separate objective fact from subjective opinion and even fiction. Example: Some say chromed chamber, non-chromed bore. Some say chromed chamber and bore. Some say no chrome at all for barrels "for best accuracy." IMO, on practical basis a BG is just as dead if shot from an AR that groups 1 MOA or another AR with a non-chromed bore that delivers 0.5 MOA.

Likewise, that BG is just as dead if one AR had a rail system, and the other had conventional handguards. Or, both had rails but from different manufacturers, each with equally enthusiastic support from owners of the respective rails.

What you're after first and foremost is accuracy and reliable functionality. There are Olympic and Bushmaster ARs that are functionally reliable with acceptable accuracy. There have been reports of owners of Stags and S&Ws having problems, real or perceived.

I'm not painting a picture of "pay your money and take your chances," but I will stress that the old adage "you get what you pay for" definitely applies to ARs, in my opinion based on experience. You may do fine with a low-cost build with a DPMS lower and a Sherluk-assembled upper. You may not. You stand a better chance of acquiring an accurate, functionally reliable product from one of the higher-end manufacturers -- BCM, S&W, Colt, DD and even Stag are examples, IMO. I'm NOT saying that the most expensive option is the best. I'm saying that ARs from high-end manufacturers with good reputations are often the best bet, particularly if you shop around and time your purchase -- right now (June) is a great time to buy a gun because sales volume at gun shops is seasonally down, and with it cash flow. I've got great deals from local shops in May through Sept just by asking if there's any room in the price -- like the last S&W M&P15, standard M4 configuration, with detatch carry handle and std front sight base -- $750 OTD, a year before the Obama election scare got in full swing.

Just some points to ponder from a graybeard businessman with powder residue on his hands and oily dirt under his fingernails that's halfway to 114.

Best,

Noah

Noah, thank you for that, I'm very appreciative. I have been putting some numbers together and it seems like based on what I want building one would only save me a small amount I don't feel is worth it. So based on that, I will most likely be buying one. I do like the idea of get what you pay for and believe that to be true in this scenario. I don't think there's anything wrong with Stag, RRA or S&W I just feel that if I can get some of the things in my rifle like staking the bolts and MPI/HPT bolts and barrels that would only add to the longevity of it. Also the cost of a DDM4 or LMT is only a bit more than a RRA or S&W and I believe that the "extra mile" DD or LMT goes in the MPI and bolt staking is where the extra cost comes in-totally worth it to me. Will I ever need the rifle to save my life...DOUBTFUL, but I like the idea that it might hold up better when I beat on it or if it gets covered in dirt/sand. I like quality far greater than cost effectiveness, so I would pay a bit more for it, I also want reliability, and the extra care that goes into a DD or Colt makes perfect sense to me.

[The_War_Wagon]

You're on the right track with an LMT, although I've no idea who'd stock 'em on your end of the state. M4C is a GREAT site, to learn how to build a rifle the RIGHT way. Stick with mfgs. like BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, LMT, & Noveske, and your rifle may stay in the fight LONG after your prime!

That's not to say you CAN'T get a good _________________ (fill in the mfg. blank) - but MANY of those M4C guys have run their gear a LOT harder than your weekend plinker. They know what'll take a licking & keep on ticking, and who routinely builds their rifles that way from the factory.