Rifle/Shotgun Car Transport?

[Archiver]

According to what I've read from the NRA/ILA PA Pamphlet that it is illegal in PA to transport a loaded rifle/shotgun in a Motor Vehicle (MV) even with a License to Carry Firearms.

The NRA/ILA also mentions: "A weapon is considered loaded if there is ammunition capable of being fired in the firing chamber, any cylinder of a revolver, in a non-detachable magazine, or in a detachable magazine that is attached or in the same container or compartment as the firearm"
However, the pamphlets that accompany each purchase in PA dont go into this detail about what is considered "loaded".

So I'm wondering....

Apparently even with a License to Carry when driving my rifle to the range in even a locked case with the ammo it appears to be illegal.

But.... Just about everybody I know has their AR15 in a "range case"
with the outside magazine holders. Is this "legal"? Is this in compliance since technically the rifle is in one container and the magazines in a seperate container even though they are connected?

I cant find any specific PA definition to explain this.

Anybody have any ideas?
Thanks!

[JamesBrown]

I keep my firearms in the trunk with the ammo in a seperate box. I got pulled over once at night with my guns in the trunk but i told the officer that i had an unloaded rifle in the trunk and he said that it was allright.

I was under the impression that with a CCW you could have a loaded rifle in the car with you.

[JayBell]

Basic rules for transport of firearms in PA follow the definitions of "firearms".
in PA law firearms has many definitions, from the "bullet spitter" definition, to what defines "firearm" for CCW use.

If you have a CCW permit, you MAY carry the following items LOADED, and or with ammo in the direct compartment with the firearm:
semiauto pistol
revolver
Rifle with a barrel of less than 16"(includes MGs)
Shotgun with a barrel less than 18"

you may NOT transport any of the above loaded or with ammo and mags in the direct compartment that has the firearm if you do NOT have a CCW.
You may NOT transport a loaded 16" or over rifle
you may NOT transport a loaded shotgun with a barrel 18" or over.
you may NOT transport a loaded handgun, or revolver, or with ammo in the same compartment as the firearm.

basically, if you have no CCW and want to transport a handgun, keep the handgun in one case, and the ammo in another, even better, separated by something like trunk and backseat.

in the case of a rifle or shotgun, you cna keep the ammo in another separate compartment of the same case, say a padded case, that has the mag or shell pockets on the outseide of the case.

the clue is keep it separate, and outside the case or container that contains the weapon.
also, keep the weapon and or ammo concealed from prying eyes, and this means folks that walk by the car when parked, and the LE officer thats walking up to your drivers side window on any kind of traffic stop.
Further, best to NEVER surrender any info that you have a CCW, or there are weapons of any kind in the car. do NOT agree to a search for ANY reason.
if they ask you to step out of the car, i have a spare key in my wallet, i LOCK the car with the keys in it as further proof that I dont submit willingly to a search.

when they ask the inevitable stupid question as follows, do NOT lie:

"Do you have any drugs, alcohol, or weapons in the vehicle?"

reply :
"I have nothing illegal in my vehicle officer. Why have i been stopped?"

keep your lawyers number on hand, the law ONLY protects you transporting the gun to and from a range, and if you have CCW permit to carry certain weapons.

Hope this helps.

[Archiver]

Yes it does help...thanks. It kinda stinks because I just bought a nifty Halliburton hard shell case for my Beretta CX4 storm...now I've got to pull the mags out and put them seperately for range trips
That seperate compartment of the range case stuff was what really got me wondering since an innocent trip to the range could have gotten nasty. 9 times out of 10 it wouldnt be a problem with most LEOs ...but you get the one with a bad day .... look out!
I'm guessing that the rifle/shotgun length limitations/definitions are probably related to people hunting from MV's which definitely is a problem.
BTW, I really like the spare key idea
I wonder how the "carrying nothing nothing illegal" would apply when they ask "are you carrying any weapons"? I know you dont HAVE to volunteer to a LEO if carrying ...... but do you legally have to if asked?
HMMMMM.........

[bric2000]

Car/Gun law summary
Date updated: Aug 23, 2005 @ 9:06 pm

Title 18 § 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to: 11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

1. Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.

2. Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.

3. The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.

4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.

5. Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.

6. Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.

7. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.

8. Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.

9. Persons licensed to hunt, take fur bearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking fur bearers or fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take fur bearers or fish or returning from such places.

10. Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.

11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

Federal Law on the Transportation of Firearms. Title 18 U.S.C. Section 926A

[Archiver]

...thats a good general guideline.
However, I cant find a specific reference or reason as to why anything over 18" barrel for shotgun (Stuff Jay Wrote) is apparently unacceptable yet a shorter barrel is OK.
Law also seems to be vague as to what the PA law is regarding what is considered "loaded" and if there is any difference with a License To Carry Firearms related to loaded longarms in a MV.

I really just want to find a law/reference that says its OK to carry my rifle and ammo in same container with my License to Carry.

[JayBell]

the issue with longer/shorter barrel lengths lies in the various definitions of "firearm" that PA uses.

the firearm definition for CCW use specifies items that are legal to be carried concealed on the person.
a big shotgun and rifle are not concealable, thats why the firearm definitions regarding barrel length are there, a SBR, SBS are concealable.
Also, when transferring NFA firearms with sub title 1 barrel lengths, the pistol form must be used along with 4473.
say, a 20" barrel M16 is ok for PICs on the 4473 after transfer, but a 11.5" barrel one would have to go on the PA state form also.
its all related to barrel length, not necessarily the function of same.

Also, never lie to a police officer.
the answer that nothing illegal is in my vehicle is an evasion, but is not a lie.
I don't choose to participate in fishing trips by the law.
If I am asked a SPECIFIC question, such as "Are you armed, or do you have a weapon on you?" I reply truthfully "I have a permit to carry a weapon, and i have a weapon on my left/right/backwhatever side."
A professional LEO knows that permit holders are responsible, lawful, and an ally against crimes.

idiot power hungry cops and rookies are the ones I worry about, i dont want to get shot by an asshat with a gun cuz he feels like the man tonite.
Remain polite, no matter the provocation.
in extreme cases, keep the lawyer on speed dial, and phone him while the cop is ranting or whatever.

[Archiver]

Thanks Jay!

[billy870m9]

my personal experence was that i called the local sheriff from where i got my ccw.. i was told that you can carry rifles pistols shotguns loaded if 1 you have a ccw and 2 they are conceiled. i could be wrong but when i go to the range with the shotty i dont make a huge deal to separate the ammo.

[ChamberedRound]

JayBell,

In your post, I'm not sure of the difference between:

If you have a CCW permit, you MAY carry the following items LOADED, and or with ammo in the direct compartment with the firearm:
semiauto pistol
revolver
Rifle with a barrel of less than 16"(includes MGs)
Shotgun with a barrel less than 18"

and this:

you may NOT transport a loaded handgun, or revolver, or with ammo in the same compartment as the firearm.

These statements seem, on the surface, to contradict one another.

Is the difference that a loaded handgun or revolver must be on your person? If not, what is the difference? I was under the impression that with an LTC, I could carry a loaded weapon in the car, whether on my person or not (like in the glovebox).

Clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!