Need to carry actual license when carrying?

[joeyd71]

After doing a quick search, I didn't see a post covering this. But if somebody already has, I apologize.

When you are carrying concealed (whether on yourself, or in your car) is it necessary to have your actual carry card with you? Because I know whenever you get pulled over and you don't have your drivers license, they can go on the computer and look it all up. I've been pulled over twice, and did not have my drivers license with me and they didn't give me any trouble.

So are the LTCF permits like drivers licenses? Would a police officer be able to search a database to see if you have your permit in case you do not have it on you at the time?

[bluehen59]

I think you only have to show proof that you have one, some guys carry a photocopy of their LTCF with them. I carry my actual card, something my father taught me at a young age that a man should always have money and proper identification on him at all times.

[tl_3237]

Been discussed here:
http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...arry-ltcf.html

Well....not so much. Forgive me if someone else already pointed this out, I jumped ahead when I hit these two posts.

The statute doesn't say "proof of licensure", it says that you have to "produce the license". A "copy of the license" is not "the license". The license is the license. A copy is a copy.

The consequences of failing to comply with the requirements of the UFA are two-fold here. There's the presumption at trial, and there's the penalty.

The penalty is the same penalty that applies to any other violation of the UFA:
§ 6119. Violation penalty
Except as otherwise specifically provided, an offense under this subchapter constitutes a misdemeanor of the first degree.

Maybe your failure to comply with a requirement of the UFA is not "an offense". But then I don't know what else you'd call it. It's a criminal statute, it imposes a duty, and failure to fulfill that duty is a violation of a criminal statute. Sounds like an "offense" to me.

I understand the primary motivation to carry a copy of the license: Because some local cops take it upon themselves to seize it and keep it, when they have no authority to revoke or seize your license. It's hardly evidence of any crime, but by taking it away from you they deprive you of the ability to comply with the next cop who makes a lawful demand to see your LTCF. If you carry copies, then they can seize the copy and you can go home and get another one. Except that you didn't produce "the license".

One possible compromise is to make the copies, keep them somewhere safe, then carry the original. If some local Fife steals your original, THEN you can start carrying a copy, and you have a pretty good legal defense for not being able to produce that original the next time an LEO makes a lawful demand. Until you're revoked by the issuing authority, you're still licensed, even if an unauthorized LEO takes the original from you.

http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...ml#post1313103

[Steve in PA]

You are required to carry your drivers license with you when you operate a motor vehicle (PAVC 1511a). Yes, the officer can check PENNDOT and see if you are licensed, but the officer can also make you physcally produce your license within (15) days (PAVC 1511b).

As for your LTCF, some people did make photo copies of the bigger, paper licenses. I'm not sure if they do that for the newer, drivers license style ones. But PACS 6122(a) says upon lawful demand of a LEO, the person will produce the license. It does not say "proof of a license", it says the license. A photo copy is NOT the license, it is only a copy of a license. Copies can easily be altered. And yes, the officer can verify through a database if you have a LTCF.

[Steve in PA]

I type too slow!! LOL!!

[MDJschool]

A photo copy is NOT the license, it is only a copy of a license. Copies can easily be altered.

FFS, forms of the license can be printed originally with whatever data one wants. That's not really a good explanation for copies being insufficient. Have police officers memorized the signatures of the 66 current sheriffs and the current chief of police of the first class city?

I'm going to guess at least 30-50% of licensees cannot comply with 18 Pa.C.S. 6118 because THEY WERE NEVER ISSUED THE LICENSE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/03...3/s33.115.html
§ 33.115. Pennsylvania license to carry firearms.
(a) The Pennsylvania license to carry firearms (as defined in section 6102 of the act (relating to definitions)) form, shall be constructed as a three-part form, 3 inches by 5 3/8 inches in dimension, on white paper. The issuing authorities, that is, county sheriff or a chief of police for a city of the first class, shall utilize the form as prescribed by the State Police.
(b) The Pennsylvania license to carry firearms (as defined in section 6102 of the act) shall be typewritten, computer generated or printed in blue or black ink with a ballpoint pen. Copies shall contain legible impressions. A photograph of the applicant may be placed on the license if required by the issuing authority.
(c) The form is designed to be folded in half and may be laminated. At the option of the entity furnishing the form, the paper weight of each part may be a minimum of 14 pounds up to a maximum of 28 pounds, and impressions may be produced by utilizing either carbon inserts or no carbon required (NCR) paper. Forms shall be numbered in numerical sequence and the size of the license numbers shall be at least 3/16 of an inch. The first two numbers shall be the county location code followed by the license number—for example, if the license was issued by Dauphin County, the license number would be 22-0000001, and so on.

[knight0334]

FFS, forms of the license can be printed originally with whatever data one wants. That's not really a good explanation for copies being insufficient. Have police officers memorized the signatures of the 66 current sheriffs and the current chief of police of the first class city?

I'm going to guess at least 30-50% of licensees cannot comply with 18 Pa.C.S. 6118 because THEY WERE NEVER ISSUED THE LICENSE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/03...3/s33.115.html
§ 33.115. Pennsylvania license to carry firearms.
(a) The Pennsylvania license to carry firearms (as defined in section 6102 of the act (relating to definitions)) form, shall be constructed as a three-part form, 3 inches by 5 3/8 inches in dimension, on white paper. The issuing authorities, that is, county sheriff or a chief of police for a city of the first class, shall utilize the form as prescribed by the State Police.
(b) The Pennsylvania license to carry firearms (as defined in section 6102 of the act) shall be typewritten, computer generated or printed in blue or black ink with a ballpoint pen. Copies shall contain legible impressions. A photograph of the applicant may be placed on the license if required by the issuing authority.
(c) The form is designed to be folded in half and may be laminated. At the option of the entity furnishing the form, the paper weight of each part may be a minimum of 14 pounds up to a maximum of 28 pounds, and impressions may be produced by utilizing either carbon inserts or no carbon required (NCR) paper. Forms shall be numbered in numerical sequence and the size of the license numbers shall be at least 3/16 of an inch. The first two numbers shall be the county location code followed by the license number—for example, if the license was issued by Dauphin County, the license number would be 22-0000001, and so on.

I've brought that up a few times in these discussions.. The only real license is the one on the prescribed for as detailed above. Anything else is not the lawful license - which countless counties for countless years have been issuing cards other than the real license. Neither of my last 2, or current, licenses are the true and lawful license.

[Mosinshooter762]

FFS, forms of the license can be printed originally with whatever data one wants. That's not really a good explanation for copies being insufficient. Have police officers memorized the signatures of the 66 current sheriffs and the current chief of police of the first class city?

I'm going to guess at least 30-50% of licensees cannot comply with 18 Pa.C.S. 6118 because THEY WERE NEVER ISSUED THE LICENSE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/03...3/s33.115.html
§ 33.115. Pennsylvania license to carry firearms.
(a) The Pennsylvania license to carry firearms (as defined in section 6102 of the act (relating to definitions)) form, shall be constructed as a three-part form, 3 inches by 5 3/8 inches in dimension, on white paper. The issuing authorities, that is, county sheriff or a chief of police for a city of the first class, shall utilize the form as prescribed by the State Police.
(b) The Pennsylvania license to carry firearms (as defined in section 6102 of the act) shall be typewritten, computer generated or printed in blue or black ink with a ballpoint pen. Copies shall contain legible impressions. A photograph of the applicant may be placed on the license if required by the issuing authority.
(c) The form is designed to be folded in half and may be laminated. At the option of the entity furnishing the form, the paper weight of each part may be a minimum of 14 pounds up to a maximum of 28 pounds, and impressions may be produced by utilizing either carbon inserts or no carbon required (NCR) paper. Forms shall be numbered in numerical sequence and the size of the license numbers shall be at least 3/16 of an inch. The first two numbers shall be the county location code followed by the license number—for example, if the license was issued by Dauphin County, the license number would be 22-0000001, and so on.

I've brought that up a few times in these discussions.. The only real license is the one on the prescribed for as detailed above. Anything else is not the lawful license - which countless counties for countless years have been issuing cards other than the real license. Neither of my last 2, or current, licenses are the true and lawful license.

The regulation specifies that copies shall contain legible impression. It even authorizes copies to made for the issuing authority, and for the State Police. If this regulation has the force of law, wouldn't a good photocopy of the license meet this requirement?

This brings to mind another issue as MDJ, and Knight have pointed out. A lot of licenses are not even copies of the original license as specified by this regulation. They are a different size, and on a plastic card. Are they a valid 'license' to be produced on lawful demand?

[knight0334]

The regulation specifies that copies shall contain legible impressions. If this regulation has the force of law, wouldn't a good photocopy meet this requirement?

The proper form is in triplicate, the two forms under the original are the "copies". The original goes to the licensee, the sheriff retains one, then the third goes to the state police.

[DonM55]

I carry my original LTCF (plastic)

§ 6122a Failure to produce such license either at the time of arrest or at the preliminary hearing shall create a rebuttable presumption of nonlicensure.

My question is if I show a copy or nothing can anything more happen than being held until original LTCF is produced at preliminary hearing. Even if not produced at the preliminary hearing nonlicensure is still rebuttable.