My first police run-in of this OC season.... At denny's :-)

[nicholasivanclark]

I know everyone is against your rights being violated here and showing your LTCF, but if it quickly diffuses the situation then why wouldn't you. Obviously two guys sitting at Denny's eating pose little threat but if someone from the restaurant called they have to check it out. Otherwise say something did happen it would be their aces. So the officer was just doing his job, kept it cordial put on a show for the worried Denny's crowed and went on his way. His he did a little investigative work while there but politely and nicely, like a good cop should.

He never demanded a LTCF just asked if they had it and the OP furnished it and crazy enough end of situation. If he wouldn't have and said F off you can bet that wouldn't of been the end of it. The officer knew it was legal to OC but like previously stated they did have to drive there.

Anyways, I see my LTCF as a weapon that can diffuse the situation quickly and uneventfully if asked for nicely. If the cop is a dick to start it most likely isn't going to be uneventful no matter what rights you surrender voluntarily.

I think showing the LTCF allowed the OP and buddy to continue eating and finish the night on a positive. Also if we didn't get a little harassment now and again what would we even talk about on this forum ha ha.

[BimmerJon]

I dont even Open Carry but this annoys me

What if you were stopped every single time you left your house, would you be upset then? What if at every red light you were asked for your license, reg and ins.?

Or maybe what if you were held at gunpoint like Viper and cursed at by trigger happy cops before being thrown to the ground? Is it the frequency that allows you to be ok with this harassment?

PS: LEO has no legal liability to respond to 911 calls nor protect you or any member of the public. So as was mentioned, no it wouldn't be "their asses" if something happened.


When a MWAG 911 call comes in the dispatcher needs to qualify it. Is it holstered? Is the actor doing anything threatening? Is there a crime being committed?

No? Tell the caller Open Carry is legal and hang up.
Before anyone says "well the person might be up to something, he has a gun!"

That argument is pointless. THOUSANDS of people carry every single day in PA.
With the above theory at any point in time, anyone standing next to you could be "ready" to commit a crime.
Just because you can see a gun rather than it be concealed, doesn't mean that person is any more willing to commit a crime. In fact, I'd argue that someone OC'ing is less likely to be a criminal than someone concealing.

Felons and criminals don't open carry!

[dc dalton]

When a MWAG 911 call comes in the dispatcher needs to qualify it. Is it holstered? Is the actor doing anything threatening? Is there a crime being committed?

No? Tell the caller Open Carry is legal and hang up.
Before anyone says "well the person might be up to something, he has a gun!"

First off I think you are giving dispatchers a lot more credit than they may deserve, secondly do you actually think they should know all the ins and out of all the laws out there? If so they sure as hell wouldn't be doing a job like that!

[BimmerJon]

First off I think you are giving dispatchers a lot more credit than they may deserve, secondly do you actually think they should know all the ins and out of all the laws out there? If so they sure as hell wouldn't be doing a job like that!

No, I don't but I think some common sense and training would go a long way especially for call for firearms. You'd think they would be trained on some qualifying questions.

What if they received a call of a man swinging an axe around in his backyard?
Assume he is doing something illegal like murder or maybe ask if there is any firewood laying around.

What if they received a call of a man running from a bank?
Assume he is doing something illegal like armed bank robbery or maybe ask if he is wearing jogging pants and some runners shoes.

What if they received a call of a man tackling some children and pinning them to the ground?
Assume he is doing something illegal like kidnapping or maybe ask if he seems like a dad just horse playing with his kids.

Point is: Carrying a firearm is not a crime and is not RAS to detain someone

Even if 911 has to dispatch an officer, IMHO, the officer never needs to enter the Dennys let alone interrogate and investigate the men (don't get it twisted, no matter how nice and polite and buddy buddy the officer was, this was an investigation and fishing expedition) Being your "friend" is all part of their training to feel things out.
There are reasons for EVERY question he asks you. Don't think he cares about what type of firearm you carry, there is typically a reason for every question.

Are there Officers that just wanna chat and shoot the shit about firearms? Are there Officers that really do care about your rights and get equally annoyed to have to come out to MWAG calls? Do some Officers REALLY care about what firearm you are carrying and enjoy shooting/gun talk as much as you do?

SURE THERE ARE! But, not all of them...

[Gun]

Even if 911 has to dispatch an officer, IMHO, the officer never needs to enter the Dennys let alone interrogate and investigate the men ....

Actually , you're wrong on this.

Most likely the caller, to 911, would still be in the restaurant, and witness the interaction between the LEO and the two men with sidearms.

What do you think that caller will take away from this?

What do you think others in the restaurant, within earshot will learn, as well?

[BimmerJon]

Actually , you're wrong on this.

Most likely the caller, to 911, would still be in the restaurant, and witness the interaction between the LEO and the two men with sidearms.

What do you think that caller will take away from this?

What do you think others in the restaurant, within earshot will learn, as well?

they'll learn that calling 911 on law abiding citizens is the "right" thing to do, which is sad.

I've called 911 plenty of times and the officer very rarely followed up with me even though I'm still on site

[nicholasivanclark]

I dont even Open Carry but this annoys me

What if you were stopped every single time you left your house, would you be upset then? What if at every red light you were asked for your license, reg and ins.?

Or maybe what if you were held at gunpoint like Viper and cursed at by trigger happy cops before being thrown to the ground? Is it the frequency that allows you to be ok with this harassment?

PS: LEO has no legal liability to respond to 911 calls nor protect you or any member of the public. So as was mentioned, no it wouldn't be "their asses" if something happened.


When a MWAG 911 call comes in the dispatcher needs to qualify it. Is it holstered? Is the actor doing anything threatening? Is there a crime being committed?

No? Tell the caller Open Carry is legal and hang up.
Before anyone says "well the person might be up to something, he has a gun!"

That argument is pointless. THOUSANDS of people carry every single day in PA.
With the above theory at any point in time, anyone standing next to you could be "ready" to commit a crime.
Just because you can see a gun rather than it be concealed, doesn't mean that person is any more willing to commit a crime. In fact, I'd argue that someone OC'ing is less likely to be a criminal than someone concealing.

Felons and criminals don't open carry!

Ok well maybe not legally they are required but say that Denny's got robbed after they called to report and no one responded to the call.... You think it would be a non issue?? Also as just stated and I said the officer responded to the call because someone either a customer or employee was uncomfortable. So he responded to inform and calm the caller. By showing that it is perfectly legal the next time they witness it they will just go about their business.

Yes this issue has been argued to the max, but you assume that you are correct in everything you say and disregard everyone else's RIGHT to SHOW the LTCF if it is their choice. Instead you ridicule, bring in totally off the wall comparisons. If you are were pulled over at every red light.....come on.... He knew they were causing no harm because he did not give them shit.

I agree OC'rs are less likely to commit a crime or are not likely felons, but the point is there was a call he responded to ease everyone and EDUCATE them at the same time.

As for the member Viper that is totally different they were out of control cops on a power trip. That was so out of control and can not be accepted.

I was simply stating that the OP has the right and can show his LTCF if he wants what is the point in getting it then. You are just as bad as them critizing people that do not follow your opinions.

[NavJAG06]

I concur that there was no reason legally to ask about the ltcf, but I would presume that it made the officer feel more comfortable about the situation that the two had ltcf's which indicate they are law abiding individuals who have a sense of respect for safety for firearms.

[BimmerJon]

I concur that there was no reason legally to ask about the ltcf, but I would presume that it made the officer feel more comfortable about the situation that the two had ltcf's which indicate they are law abiding individuals who have a sense of respect for safety for firearms.

You don't need a LTCF to OC. they were law abiding without it.

Would it make an officer feel more comfortable if a driver of a car produced a pilots license? Would he be viewed as more responsible?

[PennsyPlinker]

This reminds me of an encounter that Pennsy had in a diner a while back, he walked in OC and there was a table full of cops. If I remember correctly (and I may not) one of them said something about an LTCF to which Pennsy replied "well since it's a pretty darn good bet I didn't walk here yes I have one"

There in lies a little 'gotcha' that could very well be used in 'less than urban' areas. If the place you are at is someplace that needs to be driven to to be at then there's a huge glaring loophole because the PD knows you had to drive to get there and to drive there OC you must have your license (actually both of them).

Just something to ponder. Personally I think the OP did fine and HE made the decision to show the PD his license. Again personal decisions we each have to make each time we have an encounter.

Actually, I have been asked on a number of occasions if I have a "permit". I always answer yes, but have never pulled it out for anyone except that one cop in Philly at the airport. And you are right, there was one time (and maybe more) where I said to the officer present that while it was a pretty good bet that I did not walk there, no one had actually seen me arrive, so they could not say with certainty that I had ridden in a vehicle (or words to that effect). On one occasion I offered to have the officer wait to see if I entered a vehicle, and then he could ask to see my LTCF. No one has taken me up on that yet.

On several occasions I have flat out refused to ID myself beyond verbally, and have not had a problem with it yet. It is possible to be polite and still refuse to comply with a request which is not required by law. It's not all that far from "no thank you, I don't want any". One need not be confrontational and combative to get the point across.