Amish Required To Have Photo On FOID Card To Own Guns, Violating Religious Edict

[pac444]

Probably a stupid question...

But is it illegal to sell a long gun to an Amish man if he has no ID of any kind?
Such as a private face to face sale, etc etc.

[Statkowski]

Since when is a person required to have any ID for a face-to-face longgun sale?

As long as the person is not a prohibited person, all you would require would be a reasonable belief thereof.

Short version: It's not illegal.

[tl_3237]

Probably a stupid question...

But is it illegal to sell a long gun to an Amish man if he has no ID of any kind?
Such as a private face to face sale, etc etc.

As part of the seller's 'due diligence' responsibility he also must have reasonable knowledge that the buyer is a resident of the seller's state.

[pac444]

As part of the seller's 'due diligence' responsibility he also must have reasonable knowledge that the buyer is a resident of the seller's state.

I was just wondering if it would be considered illegal because I know a lot of them don't even have birth certificates, but I might be thinking of the Mennonites and not the Amish.

[streaker69]

I was just wondering if it would be considered illegal because I know a lot of them don't even have birth certificates, but I might be thinking of the Mennonites and not the Amish.

Amish are required to file for a Birth Certificate same as anyone else. Some Amish even attend pre-natal classes for child birth sponsored by regular hospitals and do give birth at hospitals. Others give birth at home with the assistance of mid-wives. Either way, they still have to get a birth certificate.

Mennonites file for them as well, as most Mennonites are less strict in their rules as the Amish are, unless you're talking about "old school/black buggy" Mennonites, then they're pretty close to the same rules as Amish. But they're still required to get a birth certificate.

[Philbert]

I was just wondering if it would be considered illegal because I know a lot of them don't even have birth certificates, but I might be thinking of the Mennonites and not the Amish.

Speaking only of federal law, it is unlawful under 18 U.S.C. § 922

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to
transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to
any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the
transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not
reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business
entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in
which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall
not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a
firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an
acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who
is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of
the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a
firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

and furthermore

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise
dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or
having reasonable cause to believe that such person -
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court
of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one
year;
(2) is a fugitive from justice;
(3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled
substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances
Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been
committed to any mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien -
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been
admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as
that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration
and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(26)));
(6) who (!2) has been discharged from the Armed Forces under
dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has
renounced his citizenship;
(8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from
harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such
person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging
in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in
reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except
that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that -
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received
actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to
participate; and
(B)(i) includes a finding that such person represents a
credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner
or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted
use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate
partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause
bodily injury; or
(9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of
domestic violence.

So strictly there's no requirement that you demand ID from the buyer. But I think it's a very good idea to do so, both morally and to defend yourself against the potential charge that you should have known the sale was not legal. Note that you don't even have to know for sure that the person is prohibited or not a state resident - you only have to have "reasonable cause", which is open to interpretation, and you only have to have "reasonable cause" to believe one of the multitude of prohibiting factors.

[pac444]

Amish are required to file for a Birth Certificate same as anyone else. Some Amish even attend pre-natal classes for child birth sponsored by regular hospitals and do give birth at hospitals. Others give birth at home with the assistance of mid-wives. Either way, they still have to get a birth certificate.

Mennonites file for them as well, as most Mennonites are less strict in their rules as the Amish are, unless you're talking about "old school/black buggy" Mennonites, then they're pretty close to the same rules as Amish. But they're still required to get a birth certificate.

Ahh, but that confuses me because back in Missouri there was a couple Mennonite brothers and their parents that I talked to who didn't have birth certificates or any form of ID at all and I sold a rifle to them because they were having Coyote problems.
They were really old fashioned, no cars, no electricity, no anything luxurious or modern, they raised cattle and sold crops for money to buy more feed and stuff, they lived way out in the country too, I only came in contact with them because they lived close to where my girl lived.
As far as I understood they told me they had no proof of birth or anything at all to identify themselves.
Maybe it was just that family though, who knows.

[pac444]

Speaking only of federal law, it is unlawful under 18 U.S.C. § 922



and furthermore



So strictly there's no requirement that you demand ID from the buyer. But I think it's a very good idea to do so, both morally and to defend yourself against the potential charge that you should have known the sale was not legal. Note that you don't even have to know for sure that the person is prohibited or not a state resident - you only have to have "reasonable cause", which is open to interpretation, and you only have to have "reasonable cause" to believe one of the multitude of prohibiting factors.

Thanks, that was actually pretty helpful.
The reason I asked was because I sold these Mennonites in Missouri a .30-06 and a small amount of ammo, they used it to kill Coyotes and varmints that kept killing their chickens, the only problem I was concerned with was this particular family had no form of ID or a birth certificate, but they seemed like honest folks and I needed the cash more than the gun, and they need the gun more than the cash.
I'm not real worried about anything bad happening, they seemed like good and decent people, I'm sure they wont use it for anything bad.

[son of the revolution]

Im sure Im probably accelerating my journey to hell with this, but given the topic I just couldnt resist so I'll risk it

[streaker69]

Im sure Im probably accelerating my journey to hell with this, but given the topic I just couldnt resist so I'll risk it

He did film part of that in Lancaster. I know someone that interviewed him while he was here. She said he was probably the nicest 'celebrity' you'd ever want to meet.