4473s and SSNs at the Fun Shop

[King 5.45]

Picking up the CZ 83, I found myself in the middle of the paperwork with an unsettling dilemma that had never presented itself before at this particular shop, nor anywhere else.

The clerk that I was dealing with, who has enough greybeard seniority to make even me feel like a sixth-grader and is an all-around well-respected gunny, asked me for the last four digits of my SSN.

Evidently, for the shop now it's part of the terms of the sale, and I don't like that, not even one bit. He explained that it was for the purposes of positive ID in the PICS process, and as much as I (a) wanted the pistol that I was buying, and (b) like and respect the clerk, I had a very, very hard time surrendering the information.

Years ago, when I was a kid, I had some mistaken ID issues at the bank and other places because I share the same first and last names with a felon from Philly who is of another race and was born 12 years before me. Since then, I've never had an issue because of any information system being incapable of easily distinguishing me from someone else in sensitive transactions, and never had to establish a unique BATFE identifier for purposes of purchasing a firearm.

So, at any rate, I'd like to know what gives. Has anybody else had a similar experience?

[ksig1869]

I've never had that problem but usually get the opposite from gun shop. I usually put the last four of my ssn and they usually tell me it is unnecessary. Maybe it is but I know that my name is not all that unique so someone out there is bound to have my same name but not a great background.

Are shops allowed to just require something like this, even though it clearly states optional on the form?

[King 5.45]

Are shops allowed to just require something like this, even though it clearly states optional on the form?

That's just it. They've known me for six years, I've bought several firearms there, they're aware of the fact that I have a LTCF, and I've never even had so much as a delay with them. And yes, the form says that the SSN is purely optional on the part of the purchaser, so I'm wondering what's up. If I were an unknown, I could understand it, but it still wouldn't be right, and as far as being a condition of the sale, I just don't get it.

[MDJschool]

The PSP is probably illegally reading off those 4 digits under their "instant check" part of the call for any SSN which they have access. I don't know how they get their SSNs but I'm going to guess they are tapping their criminal databases + PennDOT, none of which is authorized, probably. Having the numbers read when the box is optional causes serious confusion for dealers who DON'T READ THEIR FUCKING PSP NEWSLETTERS.

Two threads probably worth reading on the general matter of SSNs, forms, and calls are:
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/131...y-warning.html
http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/218...y-liberty.html

If you don't want to read them, see the PSP newsletters that tell dealers to only verify the SSN when it has already been provided (unfortunately I think the link to this is defunct on the aforementioned threads, so see this reference
PSP Firearms Division Firearm Dealer's Newsletter, June 2006.
PSP Firearms Division Firearm Dealer's Newsletter, December 2006.

[JayBell]

PICS reads your SS# back to the clerk anyway, so, no biggie.

either you write the last 4 digits, or the PICS does.

[Mosinshooter762]

PICS reads your SS# back to the clerk anyway, so, no biggie.

either you write the last 4 digits, or the PICS does.

I thought these PICS practices involving SSN's were found to be illegal under Federal law.

[Xringshooter]

The placement of the SSN in the block on the forms is optional and is so stated. I have no problem with someone that doesn't want to put it there. When I get read the last 4 digits (from PICS), I jot them down and ask my client if that is right. If it is then I throw the piece of paper away. Where I see it coming in handy is for a case that the OP stated, a name that is exactly like someone else's (who doesn't have a sterling reputation). If the last 4 are incorrect, then I can get hold of an PICS operator and tell them that it is incorrect and with the clients permission, give them the correct SSN. This may make a difference in whether or not the background check goes into research (or gets denied). I understand that people don't want to give out info on themselves, but if they are over 18 and have a job, etc., they have probably already given their SSN out more than one or two times.

[gnbrotz]

I encountered such a requirement at a popular firearms dealer in Gettysburg (actually the FULL SSN was required). The owner insisted it was a legal requirement for the state, even though the feds noted it was optional. I completed the transaction, but will never buy so much as a gumball in that establishment ever again.

[tl_3237]

I thought these PICS practices involving SSN's were found to be illegal under Federal law.

The issue was decided in the US Distict Court (E.Pa.) in Stollenwerk v. Miller (2006)

Pa cannot COMPEL disclosure of SSN for firearms purchase or LTCF.

[Mosinshooter762]

I encountered such a requirement at a popular firearms dealer in Gettysburg (actually the FULL SSN was required). The owner insisted it was a legal requirement for the state, even though the feds noted it was optional. I completed the transaction, but will never buy so much as a gumball in that establishment ever again.

Absolutely agree with you. I would think that compelling the number would violate Federal law. It makes you wonder what other laws are violated.