Need some advice... Game Commission

[krajus83]

So because it was so beautiful out on Sunday, I asked my wife if she wanted to go to the game lands off route 100 to break in the new Saiga 12. Being that she gets as excited about guns as I do, I didn't have to say anything more.

So I brought my Saiga to the range with 2 boxes of 00 buck to break in the action. We backed up to the field where it is designated for shotgun and started having some fun. I loaded 3 for her and she shot, and she loaded 3 for me and I shot, so on and so forth. We were shooting at random large piece of clays in the field and some empty water bottles that were laying in the field from who knows when.

Next thing I know, my wife taps my shoulder and points to a gentleman with a badge making his way over to my truck with a clip board. He proceeded to tell me that I am breaking the law by not shooting AT clays at the shotgun range.

Being respectful, I said I was under the impression that this was the shotgun range and the lower level was reserved for rifle and pistols. He nodded and said yes, but "didnt you read the signs?"

Ive been there 100 times before and ill be honest, I don't read the signs every time I go. Not to mention, We drove straight up to the shotgun range, never going to the lower range where the main sign is.

He proceeds to write 2 citations, one for me and one for my wife because we weren't shooting clays. He took all my info, my wife's info, gun info, vehicle info, ect. He said we would be getting citations in the mail within 10 days with a floating fine in the range of 100-500 dollars a piece!

My wife respectfully asked where it said you had to shoot at clays, she had looked at the signs while we waited for him to finish his documenting and none of the signage states that you must shoot clays. The Warden replied, errr, ummm, "its on the website".

I was like, what?! That was the explanation? Not wanting to make a scene we respectfully listened to what he had to say and left. I will no longer go to SGL's to shoot anything. My wife and I are respectful avid gun enthusiasts who take the sport seriously and are very respectful of the seriousness of guns in general.

For this to happen to my wife and I totally took the wind from my sails. Im actually embarrassed.

What should I do guys? Was I in the wrong? no where does it state that you must shoot clays. I was being respectful of the lower range and not beating up the target holders and stands, so I went to the upper range where it was just my wife and I trying to enjoy a beautiful spring like day.

Im so bummed and discouraged. I can only imaging what the fines will be.

I would accept my licks if I was in the wrong, Im not that type of person to deny something when I was wrong. I just dont think this is fair at all.

Thanks for reading...

-Justin

[ReconLdr]

So because it was so beautiful out on Sunday, I asked my wife if she wanted to go to the game lands off route 100 to break in the new Saiga 12. Being that she gets as excited about guns as I do, I didn't have to say anything more.

So I brought my Saiga to the range with 2 boxes of 00 buck to break in the action. We backed up to the field where it is designated for shotgun and started having some fun. I loaded 3 for her and she shot, and she loaded 3 for me and I shot, so on and so forth. We were shooting at random large piece of clays in the field and some empty water bottles that were laying in the field from who knows when.

Next thing I know, my wife taps my shoulder and points to a gentleman with a badge making his way over to my truck with a clip board. He proceeded to tell me that I am breaking the law by not shooting AT clays at the shotgun range.

Being respectful, I said I was under the impression that this was the shotgun range and the lower level was reserved for rifle and pistols. He nodded and said yes, but "didnt you read the signs?"

Ive been there 100 times before and ill be honest, I don't read the signs every time I go. Not to mention, We drove straight up to the shotgun range, never going to the lower range where the main sign is.

He proceeds to write 2 citations, one for me and one for my wife because we weren't shooting clays. He took all my info, my wife's info, gun info, vehicle info, ect. He said we would be getting citations in the mail within 10 days with a floating fine in the range of 100-500 dollars a piece!

My wife respectfully asked where it said you had to shoot at clays, she had looked at the signs while we waited for him to finish his documenting and none of the signage states that you must shoot clays. The Warden replied, errr, ummm, "its on the website".

I was like, what?! That was the explanation? Not wanting to make a scene we respectfully listened to what he had to say and left. I will no longer go to SGL's to shoot anything. My wife and I are respectful avid gun enthusiasts who take the sport seriously and are very respectful of the seriousness of guns in general.

For this to happen to my wife and I totally took the wind from my sails. Im actually embarrassed.

What should I do guys? Was I in the wrong? no where does it state that you must shoot clays. I was being respectful of the lower range and not beating up the target holders and stands, so I went to the upper range where it was just my wife and I trying to enjoy a beautiful spring like day.

Im so bummed and discouraged. I can only imaging what the fines will be.

I would accept my licks if I was in the wrong, Im not that type of person to deny something when I was wrong. I just dont think this is fair at all.

Thanks for reading...

-Justin

Go back there and take pictures of the signs.... If it is not posted at the range, then you should be able follow the challenge instructions on the back of the citation.

[Sandcut]

After checking the game law links on the PGC website, the only limitation on using a shotgun at a PGC range is that you are only allowed to shoot clay birds if the range designates that it is allowed. I cannot, however, find a reference stating that you are ONLY allowed to shoot clay birds. I could be wrong but, this may be a PGC policy issue and not a statutory issue.

It's possible that shooting the bottles violated a littering law or something similar but, from how you state it, it comes off as if it is a range violation and not a trash violation.

Here's all I could find. http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/05...hap135toc.html

Subchapter J. SHOOTING RANGES


Sec.


135.181. Rifle and handgun ranges.
135.182. Ranges, State Game Lands No. 176.


Cross References

This subchapter cited in 58 Pa. Code § 135.41 (relating to State Game Lands).

§ 135.181. Rifle and handgun ranges.
(a) General provisions. In addition to § 135.2 (relating to unlawful actions) and except as provided in § 135.182 (relating to Ranges, State Game Lands No. 176), the following pertain to lands under Commission ownership, lease or jurisdiction, designated as rifle or handgun ranges:

(1) Rifle and handgun ranges are open from 8 a.m., prevailing time, until sunset Monday through Saturday and from 12 noon to sunset Sundays, unless otherwise posted; except the Sunday immediately preceding the regular antlered and antlerless deer seasons and the regular bear season, when the hours are 8 a.m. to sunset.

(2) A range may be reserved for exclusive use by an organized group from January 1 through October 1. An organized group desiring to reserve the range shall make necessary arrangements through the appropriate regional director or a designee at least 20 days in advance.

(3) An individual may not use the range when in use on days when it is reserved by an organized group.

(4) An individual or an organized group using the range is responsible for keeping the area clean and free of debris, and may not discard, deposit, leave or throw litter except in approved refuse containers. Range users shall remove targets from range backboards when shooting is completed and prior to leaving the range.

(5) The Commission is not responsible for anyone injured on the range. An individual using Commission owned ranges does so at his own risk and assumes all responsibility for injuries to a person or property caused by or to him.

(6) When more than one person is using the range, a range officer shall be designated.

(7) An individual under 16 years of age may not use the range unless accompanied by a person 18 years of age or older.

(8) The appropriate regional director or designee may close a range by posting signs to that effect.

(b) Prohibited acts. At a rifle and handgun range located on land under Commission ownership, lease or jurisdiction, except when authorized by the appropriate regional director or a designee for military or law enforcement training, it is unlawful to:

(1) Possess a loaded firearm, except at an established shooting station on the firing line.

(2) Discharge a firearm, except from an established shooting station on the firing line at a paper target placed on a permanent target backboard.

(3) Discharge armor piercing, incendiary, explosive, tracer or multiple projectile ammunition.

(4) Be intoxicated, use or possess an intoxicating beverage or controlled substance on the range.

(5) Possess an automatic weapon.

(6) Possess, load or discharge a firearm that contains more than three rounds of single projectile ammunition, except as provided in subsection (c).

(7) Shoot clay birds anywhere except areas designated by the Director by signs stating that clay bird shooting is permitted.

(c) Exceptions for a handgun range. At a Commission range specifically designated as a handgun range, it is permitted for an individual to load and discharge a handgun containing a maximum of six rounds of single projectile ammunition at any one time. Other rules and regulations pertaining to shooting ranges under Commission ownership, lease or jurisdiction shall be in effect.



Authority

The provisions of this § 135.181 amended under the Game and Wildlife Code, 34 Pa.C.S. § § 721(a) and 2102(a).



Source

The provisions of this § 135.181 adopted June 19, 1987, effective July 1, 1987, 17 Pa.B. 2464; amended December 1, 1995, effective January 7, 1995, 25 Pa.B. 5508; amended March 23, 2007, effective March 24, 2007, 37 Pa.B. 1309. Immediately preceding text appears at serial pages (290787) to (290788).



Cross References

You may want to look for yourself before you challange it. This is a starting point at least.

[krajus83]

I don't even know if I want to take it that far. It's just very sad that an afternoon out with my wife had to turn into this.

[Swarner793]

Absolutely take a hearing. As stated, photograph the signs. The system is there for a reason. This is one of those times. Especially if you live in the DJ's district

Be safe (and have your day in court).

Scott

[Exbiker]

So an old guy that has been shooting there for years and doesn't have a computer would get a fine?
How about dropping the speed limit on a stretch of road to 25 and have no signs just a notice on the internet. WTF
Fight it.

[krajus83]

Still nothing in the mail. Im still on the fence. Im sure they could use the fact that I was shooting a trash that was on the grounds against me, even though every spent husk I shot was policed and put into the trash can in the bed of my truck.

I know I should fight it, but I just don't want any trouble from here on out. Im considering just paying it and moving forward. I guess I will decide when the fines come in the mail. For some strange reason Im holding out hope that it just may be a warning.

The best part about his speech to us was how he personally vowed to not close the range due to lack of funding.

Regardless, I left the range and drove straight to Guthsville and joined. Im debating on even buying a fishing license anymore. Ill just give it up. Its left such a sour taste in my mouth and as I stated, it is embarrassing to me to even admit that I was fined by the game commission. My wife teases me for always going by the book and being so safe, and I tell her its like that for a reason, she just likes teasing me.

[myblacktruck]

Go back there and take pictures of the signs.... If it is not posted at the range, then you should be able follow the challenge instructions on the back of the citation.

I would absolutly do this and then take it to court

[tacticalreload]

Do the Game Commission guys have power of arrest? Just wondering what would have happened if you refused to produce ID and just left.

[A-5]

Do the Game Commission guys have power of arrest? Just wondering what would have happened if you refused to produce ID and just left.

Fight it with a good argument the judge may teach that WCO a lesson on giving people a chance to pack up, understand the range rules and then follow them. Not to defend the WCO, the rules state I believe you have to have a backstop to shoot at a range to me the ground has rocks in it and can cause ricochet. Shooting 8 shot at clays is way different then buckshot on the ground. In general gun clubs have frames with paper to pattern buckshot at the range, join a gun club and get out of the communist PGC range.