45 ACP FMJ Ball Ammo for Carry ???

[Steve_NEPhila]

[/U]

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah !
3/4ths of what you said is the same thing I have said and I don't see this big IQ difference between your so called scientific brain and my so called brain which suffers from delusions of grandeur ? You haven't shown anyone here
the physics and mathematics of this concept either, so lets see the numbers
professor ? Show us all your supreme mentality that we all lack ?
What are the truths of this universe the SOL universe ?
How about the DAL Universe ? Come on tell us all the real truths of everything ? Your only gripe is about ball ammo, then keep it about ammo and leave out your wanna-be philosophical bullshit !
The 9mm Nato round is different because it travels at 1400+ feet a second !
Of course it's going to overpenetrate ! You claim Marshall and Sanow is where you got your info on the 230 gr, 835 fps 45 acp round.
Marshall and Sanow rates the 45acp FMJ round a 61% one shot stopper without mention of it overpenetrating. In fact they say because of it's slow speed it's less likely to overpenetrate ! I don't know what books your reading
but maybe you should do some math and study the Universe a bit more than you give yourself credit for Professor ? It's is well know now that the time and space fabric can be manipulated and bent which could thus slow down or speed up time. So if you want to get technical, your wrong !
Earth has gravity and that's where we do all of our shooting so what does the Universe got to do with what we're talking about ?
I love it when you get these people who try to come off as the Einstein/Darwinian/Tesla experts, and try to apply them to something as simple as a bullet and the speed it travels ! Especially when this bullet was used extensively in the past with good results and the 45 did have good results better than 9mm and 38 special all in Hardball form.

Nice Try Professor !

Here is the link to the data presented by Marshall and Sanow in "Street Stoppers:"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

About half way down the table with penetration data was taken from "Street Stoppers" according to the footnotes. This information is indeed accurate.

You should really stop projecting your insecurities, it will diminish your ability to maintain an open mind and to learn. There is some good information here.

As for penetration, as previously posted by an astute member the penetration achieved by a projectile has more to do with bullet design than it does with speed. However, the coefficient of drag is also a major factor when it comes to penetration. For example, if you have identical bullet structural designs and identical weights propelled at the same speed yet one is 9mm wide and one is 11mm wide (of course the 9mm wide bullet will be longer to have the same mass) it would be accurate to predict that the narrower projectile will penetrate further. This prediction would be due to the coefficient of drag, or resistance when passing through a substance. All bullets pass through substances, when flying through our environment bullets experience aerodynamic drag, when passing through ballistic gelatin they will experience hydrodynamic drag. The projectile with less drag will penetrate further because it will lose less of its energy to friction.

This is all about ammunition, as all of these forces exist and must be considered when designing or using ammunition for specific purposes. Speaking of speed, a projectile traveling 1400 fps yet designed to fragment can possibly penetrate far less than a load going much slower, speed has no relation to penetration when bullet design is not constant. Today, the high end defense ammunition is fantastic. The projectiles are designed to penetrate about 11-14 inches, stay in one piece, low flash powders are being used and the reliability is superb. In fact, the tolerances are much tighter on the premium defense ammo lines as compared to the target ammo lines thus producing a more reliable product. Products like Hornady Critical Defense, Winchester PDX-1 and others have been designed from the ground up to perform.

There is nothing simple about a bullet and what it does in flight. If that were the case you would not be writing the above absurd post because you would be too busy running your market dominating ammunition business. Science is all around you, if you choose to treat it like middle age Catholic Church management, so be it. The refusal of something does not make it fail to exist, it just does not exist for you.

I highlighted the above red section because I am entirely confused as to what you mean. Please explain your point, as it was not clear. From reading the above red section it appeared to me that you were making a point about physics, please elaborate.

In short, science has everything to do with ammunition performance. The .45 ACP FMJ is a terrible performer when it comes to defense when compared to modern bullet design. Is it better than nothing, yup. Is .45 ACP FMJ better than 9mm or .38 special ball ammunition, yup again. Is the .45 ACP a better performer than a modern (pick one, any one) defensive load in the same caliber, absolutely not.

I am not a professor, just a guy who has a small amount of knowledge of the goings on around me. Science is based on observation, as it is the key element to discovery. Try some observation, it will help.

[625]

Another couple of good reasons to use proper SD rounds is the fact that any of the good ones use low flash powder and properly seal the primer.

[TonyD]

"Never trust a woman or an automatic pistol" JD

For a PDW, the most important requirement for a firearm is that it goes bang every time you pull the trigger.

The 1911 handgun was designed to fire .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ at around 830 or 850 FPS. Also, as far as I know, all .45 ACP firearms are designed from scratch to operate with the standard .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ at around 830/850 FPS. Any deviation from that ammo and all bets are off! You'll get jams, and with time, could damage the firearm.

So, if you load some new wizbang hollowpoint, going faster that 850 FPS, you're feeding the gun something that it was not designed to operate with. That increases the probability that you will find yourself holding a .45 ACP paper-weight, and have a stupid look on your face, while some thug grins and pumps lead into your belly.

This is not a good thing.

Explaining to the thug that these new wizbang hollow points almost never jam, and they almost always expand real good - in naked people and bare gelatin - won't help you.

I for one will load my pistol with .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ at around 830/850 FPS, as God, and John Browning intended.

Tony

[Glockman]

Here's my 2 cents. Yes I am a Physics professor, but I have also been a Firearms Instructor for 47 years. Most modern 45 Autos are built to feed hollowpoints. The best test medium for people shooting bullets is people. The Federal 230 Hydro shock has an excellent record out there on the streets. The Speer Gold Dot is a great bullet. I carry the Corbon PowrBall. It will feed and It will not over penetrate. The second best test medium is ballistic gel. Go the the web site of Corbon/Glaser and watch their ammo in slow motion in the gel. The military likes a lot of penetration because behind that Nazi is another Nazi, or the Nazi is hiding behind an oak tree. The 45 ACP was the best load when all pistol were loaded with FMJ. Everything has now changed. A 380 with a good hollow point can get the same 63% score as the 45 FMJ. Please do not carry FMJ if you live in Penna. 80 yards behind the bad guy might be me and my granddaughter. Your 230 FMJ will go through all three of us.

Scroll back up and read what ReconLdr posted. Good stuff.

[Mootness]

...

The 1911 handgun was designed to fire .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ at around 830 or 850 FPS. Also, as far as I know, all .45 ACP firearms are designed from scratch to operate with the standard .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ at around 830/850 FPS. Any deviation from that ammo and all bets are off! You'll get jams, and with time, could damage the firearm.


.....

Tony

Browning originally had in mind the 200 grain at around 1,000 fps. Military wanted the bigger bullet though when they were testing.

If I remember the history channel show accurately, the rationale came from when they moved up to the 45 long colt with its bigger bullet when fighting the Zulus, so they didn't want to go down to a lighter 200 grain bullet.

[Neko456]

This is not really an argument fmj 230 grain 45 ammo is a fair round, and surll;y if your gun has a problem shooting JHP ammo reliabilty iis fair more important then how lethal a round is. But if you want to get anywhere close to the top of the food chain in effective termination of man threats you will need a JHP, which brings the 45acp up near the 357 magnum which is 1st place in most tables. As stated fmj 230 ball is close to a good 380 or 38spl jhp P+.

This is ot saying they are the most powerful, because there is the argument of S&W 50, 45 Casull, 44/41 mag and 10mm being to powerful. I assuming meaning that they would blow right through a man not placing most of its FPE inside the target. Still sounds like a stop to me.

[Starfighter]

Here's my 2 cents. Yes I am a Physics professor, but I have also been a Firearms Instructor for 47 years. Most modern 45 Autos are built to feed hollowpoints. The best test medium for people shooting bullets is people. The Federal 230 Hydro shock has an excellent record out there on the streets. The Speer Gold Dot is a great bullet. I carry the Corbon PowrBall. It will feed and It will not over penetrate. The second best test medium is ballistic gel. Go the the web site of Corbon/Glaser and watch their ammo in slow motion in the gel. The military likes a lot of penetration because behind that Nazi is another Nazi, or the Nazi is hiding behind an oak tree. The 45 ACP was the best load when all pistol were loaded with FMJ. Everything has now changed. A 380 with a good hollow point can get the same 63% score as the 45 FMJ. Please do not carry FMJ if you live in Penna. 80 yards behind the bad guy might be me and my granddaughter. Your 230 FMJ will go through all three of us.

I read thru this entire thread. I had the notion that loading my .45 w/230 grain FMJ would "stop" someone trying to kill or aggress me or my family, but not neccessarily kill them. I was thinking along the lines of, easier repair by the medic, and possibly not a life-ending event for the criminal. However... of all the input I read in this thread, those last sentences of yours do seem to sum up what a 45 ball round will do, in most cases. If I'm unlucky enough to ever need to use a gun in a defense situation, for sure there's NO time to consider what's BEHIND the person or animal attacking me. After reading this thread I believe my idea to carry target 230gr ball ammo in a .45, and how that might possibly minimize the likelihood of killing another human being, is misguided. There's a chance I'm likely to do more damage given what happens after the projectile goes thru its primary target. Thank you for that simple and terrible picture you painted of three for the price of one.