45 ACP FMJ Ball Ammo for Carry ???

[Irwin Inhabitant]

Are you implying that the projectile you fired at basically a large rat did not go all the way through at that distance? I find it about impossible to believe that a .45 ACP HP did not punch through both sides of a possum as described in your story. I know what possums are made of, and steel, kevlar, spectrashield, dragon skin or titanium are not it.

As I stated in my other post, I knew I would be questioned about this.

The ammo was Winchester, can't recall specific name or grain. I think I bought it at Gander Mt. for an extremely ridiculous high price. It seemed useless after that, so I burned it up on a woodpile. It would barely even pass thru a pressure treated 2x6 from 15 feet. Just left a puckered splinter bump.

The shot entered just behind the "large rat's" front leg, and probably should have exited thru his @$$ or tail area, in my judgement of the trajectory. It did not.

Since it was 11:30 pm and I just got home, I heard our dogs going nuts inside the house, and knew that my wife was ready with her .357, so I identified myself and did not fire another shot. Obviously my ears were ringing, and I already have some hearing loss, so why should I?

It was pretty much bled out by the time I got a shovel to 'humanely' finish the job. I flipped it over a couple times to look for an exit wound, there was none.
The wife was b!+ch!ng about me "Playing with a dead animal", so I had to end my forensic examination.
It is your choice to believe me or not. I have nothing to gain by posting a BS story.

I do have a poor quality cell phone pic taken in the dark. He crawled down from the top, hung on, and bled out.


[IMG][/IMG]

[Steve_NEPhila]

I cannot believe that the cartridge had enough energy to cycle the action (I am assuming you used an autoloading pistol and not a .45 ACP revolver) yet the projectile would not penetrate a 2x6? Or are you saying that it did penetrate the 2x6 but only just? (which would be hard to measure unless you had a chronograph at the exit side to clock the speed difference)

It is possible that your shot on the possum missed where you intended it to be and you produced a grazing wound. Personally, I do not care what my wife would have told me (in fact, mine would have assisted with the necropsy) when pursuing knowledge I would have continued. I just do not believe it, the facts are not present to change my skepticism.

[PhillyGunslinger]

That penetration versus velocity discussion is only explained in half-truths.

They dont tell you that expansion and bullet profile are the main factors. In reality, and by default, a faster bullet will penetrate further because of greater energy and momentum, but that greater energy and momentum will more likely cause the bullet to deform more which will cause it to have a greater frontal area to resist further penetration.

It can be proved by taking two 230gr FMJ's, then propel one at 850fps and propel the other at 1000fps - the faster will penetrate further. Comparing faster JHP's versus slower FMJ's to point out that the "faster" will penetrate less is a faulty test standard. The bullet's design determined which penetrated further, not so much the velocity. When you compare two like HP's, the discuss can hold some truth. But not when comparing two unlike bullets.

I can guarantee you that a 500gr FMJ .458" slug from my 45-120 at 2300fps will out penetrate that same 500gr FMJ .458" slug at 1800fps. It will also out penetrate my 300gr JHP's at 2900+fps and 405gr semi-jacketed softnose bullets at 2400fps.

Thankyou ! Well explained !

As far as the mentioned "Glamour" ammo, there are some in which can have this title, Power Ball, Glaser Saftey Slugs, Magsafe, and so on. This type of ammo usually is ridiculously expensive and really doesn't give much edge over
quality conventional ammo. I don't think $20 for 6 rounds is really worth it for what they do. I'd rather have a good hollowpoint load over these overpriced, overhyped cartridges. In fact, after watching some ammo tests on you tube with various ammo both expensive and cheap, in some cases the cheaper ammo did better ! There was a test with denim used on wood boards
over barrells filled with water and denim on milk gallons filled with water and paper. Remington Golden Sabre had jacket/core separations and the UMC didn't ! It goes to show that more expensive doesn't always mean better ?
The UMC'c also expanded nicely for a low priced round. After seeing this why the heck should I buy Golden Sabre anymore unless they are the Bonded type when UMC's perform better and cost less ?

Also about 45 FMJ overpenetration issues, if this was the case why then did so many police agencies use them years ago and even today in some states ?
As posted earlier they do expand upon hitting bone ! This would help against overpenetration as well. Just some thoughts and truths...

[acosenza2]

Thankyou ! Well explained !

As far as the mentioned "Glamour" ammo, there are some in which can have this title, Power Ball, Glaser Saftey Slugs, Magsafe, and so on. This type of ammo usually is ridiculously expensive and really doesn't give much edge over
quality conventional ammo. I don't think $20 for 6 rounds is really worth it for what they do. I'd rather have a good hollowpoint load over these overpriced, overhyped cartridges. In fact, after watching some ammo tests on you tube with various ammo both expensive and cheap, in some cases the cheaper ammo did better ! There was a test with denim used on wood boards
over barrells filled with water and denim on milk gallons filled with water and paper. Remington Golden Sabre had jacket/core separations and the UMC didn't ! It goes to show that more expensive doesn't always mean better ?
The UMC'c also expanded nicely for a low priced round. After seeing this why the heck should I buy Golden Sabre anymore unless they are the Bonded type when UMC's perform better and cost less ?

Also about 45 FMJ overpenetration issues, if this was the case why then did so many police agencies use them years ago and even today in some states ?
As posted earlier they do expand upon hitting bone ! This would help against overpenetration as well. Just some thoughts and truths...

Remington UMC is my what I normally carry

[Steve_NEPhila]

Also about 45 FMJ overpenetration issues, if this was the case why then did so many police agencies use them years ago and even today in some states ?
As posted earlier they do expand upon hitting bone ! This would help against overpenetration as well. Just some thoughts and truths...

The use by any police agency of any equipment lends no cache' to the effectiveness or utility of the item. It was not too long ago that the esteemed NYPD issued 9mm 124 grain NATO ball ammunition for their officers. That ammunition is horrendous for over penetration and poor terminal results. Asking a backwards question like "why did they use it if it was so poor" is an intellectually stunted way to attempt to understand a topic.

You want to speak of truths, name three police departments that issue the .45 ACP FMJ today. Name one state that uses them today as the issue ammunition. Most bullets will deform when hitting bone, yet which one do you think will penetrate more (see over penetrate) a projectile that cuts through 27 inches oh human analog or one that goes through 13 inches? Correct, the one that goes through more.

You should spend some time learning instead of attempting to further your fallacious beliefs through anecdotal "truths." Physics and mathematics are the only real and true "truths" that exist in this universe.

[Irwin Inhabitant]

I cannot believe that the cartridge had enough energy to cycle the action (I am assuming you used an autoloading pistol and not a .45 ACP revolver) yet the projectile would not penetrate a 2x6? Or are you saying that it did penetrate the 2x6 but only just? (which would be hard to measure unless you had a chronograph at the exit side to clock the speed difference)

It is possible that your shot on the possum missed where you intended it to be and you produced a grazing wound. Personally, I do not care what my wife would have told me (in fact, mine would have assisted with the necropsy) when pursuing knowledge I would have continued. I just do not believe it, the facts are not present to change my skepticism.

I understand your skepticism. I have been shooting guns for 43 years, and I would not have believed it either, if it had not been me. It was NOT a grazing wound.
I grew up as an amateur ammo tester for a sometimes hobby, if you know what I mean.
Besides nuisance varmints, shot many inanimate objects at the dumps, cars, appliances, TVs, furniture, etc.
And of course all the rotten fruits and veggies we could collect from the neighboring farms.

Point is, I have a pretty fair hick/redneck understanding of how some calibers and ammos usually perform on what objects. By no means scientific, just home-schooled ballistics testing.

I told my possum story to more than a few guys at my gun club, etc., who I know to be more experienced with 1911s than me. The general response was that the ammo was too fragmenting rather than expanding. Enough power and velocity, cycled the action OK, but fragments too much.

I think the ammo was called 'Winchester Supreme', but no way to be positive now, it has been a few months. When I bought it, I also bought a box in .38+P.
That ammo took 3 rounds to euthanise a crazy psycho racoon that was tearing off our roof shingles. I was starting to get nervous, it was only a 5 shot J-Frame. Another story there, I thought it was just too small a caliber for the task at the time, until the possum and the 1911 story.

I have always been satisfied with the performance of .45 ACP 230gr ball ammo, I am staying with it.
FYI, if you want to try to ID the .45 ammo, here is a pic of the same stuff in .38+P.

[IMG][/IMG]

RE: the wife thing- mine is usually pretty cool about guns and dead animals too, she grew up in a family of hunters. She is especially pro-extermination when protecting her expensive rose bushes/gardens.

But sometimes other factors have to be worked out. It was midnite, she had to get up at 5am, the dogs were literally tearing up the house and curtains and blinds to go outside, etc. Things would have been smoother if she was off the next day. The joys of marriage!

One more thing, not bustin' your ballz. But re: your quote- "Physics and mathematics are the only real and true 'truths' that exist in this universe."
I am quite skeptical of your comparism of a possum to a large rat. A rat is a 'mammal', a possum is a 'marsupial'.
So whether you believe in God/Creationism, or Darwinmonkeyism/evolution/bigbang, there is the reality of species denotation and cell structure and DNA, regardless of it's origin. And you don't have to explain the mathematics in DNA coding! Just sayin'!

[PhillyGunslinger]

I understand your skepticism. I have been shooting guns for 43 years, and I would not have believed it either, if it had not been me. It was NOT a grazing wound.
I grew up as an amateur ammo tester for a sometimes hobby, if you know what I mean.
Besides nuisance varmints, shot many inanimate objects at the dumps, cars, appliances, TVs, furniture, etc.
And of course all the rotten fruits and veggies we could collect from the neighboring farms.

Point is, I have a pretty fair hick/redneck understanding of how some calibers and ammos usually perform on what objects. By no means scientific, just home-schooled ballistics testing.

I told my possum story to more than a few guys at my gun club, etc., who I know to be more experienced with 1911s than me. The general response was that the ammo was too fragmenting rather than expanding. Enough power and velocity, cycled the action OK, but fragments too much.

I think the ammo was called 'Winchester Supreme', but no way to be positive now, it has been a few months. When I bought it, I also bought a box in .38+P.
That ammo took 3 rounds to euthanise a crazy psycho racoon that was tearing off our roof shingles. I was starting to get nervous, it was only a 5 shot J-Frame. Another story there, I thought it was just too small a caliber for the task at the time, until the possum and the 1911 story.

I have always been satisfied with the performance of .45 ACP 230gr ball ammo, I am staying with it.
FYI, if you want to try to ID the .45 ammo, here is a pic of the same stuff in .38+P.

[IMG][/IMG]

RE: the wife thing- mine is usually pretty cool about guns and dead animals too, she grew up in a family of hunters. She is especially pro-extermination when protecting her expensive rose bushes/gardens.

But sometimes other factors have to be worked out. It was midnite, she had to get up at 5am, the dogs were literally tearing up the house and curtains and blinds to go outside, etc. Things would have been smoother if she was off the next day. The joys of marriage!

One more thing, not bustin' your ballz. But re: your quote- "Physics and mathematics are the only real and true 'truths' that exist in this universe."
I am quite skeptical of your comparism of a possum to a large rat. A rat is a 'mammal', a possum is a 'marsupial'.
So whether you believe in God/Creationism, or Darwinmonkeyism/evolution/bigbang, there is the reality of species denotation and cell structure and DNA, regardless of it's origin. And you don't have to explain the mathematics in DNA coding! Just sayin'!

That ammo pictured is Winchester PDX1 which is supposed to be very good.
If it didn't blow apart a possum it sucks and im getting rid of whatever I have ! There are police in parts of NJ that use 45 Ball ammo and years ago down in Texas back in the 70's and 80's ! Gelatin and the human body is two different things. A bullet is not going to perform the same in both, the gelatin is just to get an idea of performance. Those PDX1's performed awesome in gelatin but couldn't even get through a possum so how much different would they and 45 Hardball perform on human targets ? Like I said, hyped up performing ammo that did squat ! He'd would have been better off with UMC
in hollow point or FMJ's !

[ReconLdr]

Though fmj in 45 is better then 9mm fmj, it is my opinion that it is inferior to good JHP ammo in 45acp. The fmj 45acp is mediocre in "Stopping power" and the 45 acp and 357 JHP are two of the best in this field.

FMJ 45acp is adequate but not maximum performance for the gun. I agree if the guns not tested then FMJ maybe best for reliability sake.

FWIW:

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppi...=18&Weight=230

PAFOA won't let me post a table but your claim appears to be spot on...

230 All165185200230

45 ACP Stopping Power 230 gr
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Federal HS 173 166 96% 0.76" 13.9"
CCI GD 45 42 93% 0.68" 12.2"
Remington GS 10 9 90% 0.73" 12.9"
Federal HS 28 25 89% 0.68" 12.9" 4" barrel or less
Winchester BT 96 84 88% 0.75" 13.9"
Winchester BT 26 21 81% 0.69" 13.1" 4" barrel or less
Federal FMJ 215 134 62% 0.45" 20.4"
Winchester FMJ 209 130 62% 0.45" 19.9"
Remington FMJ 151 94 62% 0.45" 19.1"
Federal FMJ 15 9 60% 0.45" 14.2" 4" barrel or less
Winchester FMJ 34 20 59% 0.45" 13.7" 4" barrel or less
Remington FMJ 14 8 57% 0.45" 14.2" 4" barrel or less
12 loads


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BT = Black Talon GS = Golden Saber GD = Gold Dot
HS = Hydra Shok ST = Silvertip LRN = Lead Round Nose
SWC = Semi Wadcutter JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point FMJ = Full Metal Jacket

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Roland of Gilead]

Good thread, this is all really interesting (well, most of it).

I've been carrying Golden Sabers for a while, since they seem to feed best in the 1911. 230 gr. in the 1911 and 185 gr. in the PT145.

Lacking any sophistcated test equipment myself, i think I'll follow this thread for a bit and see what happens.

(FWIW, when zombie time comes it'll probably be just FMJs all the way . . .)

..

[PhillyGunslinger]

The use by any police agency of any equipment lends no cache' to the effectiveness or utility of the item. It was not too long ago that the esteemed NYPD issued 9mm 124 grain NATO ball ammunition for their officers. That ammunition is horrendous for over penetration and poor terminal results. Asking a backwards question like "why did they use it if it was so poor" is an intellectually stunted way to attempt to understand a topic.

You want to speak of truths, name three police departments that issue the .45 ACP FMJ today. Name one state that uses them today as the issue ammunition. Most bullets will deform when hitting bone, yet which one do you think will penetrate more (see over penetrate) a projectile that cuts through 27 inches oh human analog or one that goes through 13 inches? Correct, the one that goes through more.

You should spend some time learning instead of attempting to further your fallacious beliefs through anecdotal "truths." Physics and mathematics are the only real and true "truths" that exist in this universe.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah !
3/4ths of what you said is the same thing I have said and I don't see this big IQ difference between your so called scientific brain and my so called brain which suffers from delusions of grandeur ? You haven't shown anyone here
the physics and mathematics of this concept either, so lets see the numbers
professor ? Show us all your supreme mentality that we all lack ?
What are the truths of this universe the SOL universe ?
How about the DAL Universe ? Come on tell us all the real truths of everything ? Your only gripe is about ball ammo, then keep it about ammo and leave out your wanna-be philosophical bullshit !
The 9mm Nato round is different because it travels at 1400+ feet a second !
Of course it's going to overpenetrate ! You claim Marshall and Sanow is where you got your info on the 230 gr, 835 fps 45 acp round.
Marshall and Sanow rates the 45acp FMJ round a 61% one shot stopper without mention of it overpenetrating. In fact they say because of it's slow speed it's less likely to overpenetrate ! I don't know what books your reading
but maybe you should do some math and study the Universe a bit more than you give yourself credit for Professor ? It's is well know now that the time and space fabric can be manipulated and bent which could thus slow down or speed up time. So if you want to get technical, your wrong !
Earth has gravity and that's where we do all of our shooting so what does the Universe got to do with what we're talking about ?
I love it when you get these people who try to come off as the Einstein/Darwinian/Tesla experts, and try to apply them to something as simple as a bullet and the speed it travels ! Especially when this bullet was used extensively in the past with good results and the 45 did have good results better than 9mm and 38 special all in Hardball form.

Nice Try Professor !