45 ACP FMJ Ball Ammo for Carry ???

[acosenza2]

I have fmj in my .40 right now. I believe my father also has fmj in his 1911 (although he does seem to like his hp's for his 9mm).

[760gamemaster]

I carry the FMJ in my 45

[bigthicketthunter]

What about 230 RN cast bullet moving 800-850 FPS. This what i plan to carry myself.

Andy

[PhillyGunslinger]

Do you have some more info on this? I thought .45 had some of the highest penetration, and also thought that heavy slow bullets had higher penetration in general (momentum vs. velocity and energy, and lack of upset/deformation). But I might be confusing the issue with my understanding of HP and fragmenting bullets. I'm was under the impression that .45 penetrates quite well.

The 45 FMJ penetrates very well but because its not at a super high velocity like the 10mm for example, it's not prone to blow through as easy. It's probably happened on smaller targets but on larger ones most likely not.
I don't remember the article where I read this, all I know it was a question I googled. You don't hear of folks using FMJ for the 10mm, 357 Mag, 41 and 44 Mag. They would go thru and keep on going ! Im having trouble locally finding ball ammo that puts out at least 400 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. I gotta get to Walmart out of the city to get some Winchester WB !!!

[PhillyGunslinger]

I have carried .45 FMJ for years. Believe me, I have read all the data and stats of ball vs. hollow points, and had many discussions/arguments over it.
IMO unless you have a custom polished feed ramp and barrel throat, there is always a chance that a hollow point could mis-feed, FTF,FTE,etc.

I am speaking only about the 1911 platform here, my experiences, not XD etc.

Plus there is the factor of cost. I think that you should fire at least 400-700 rounds thru a gun before it can be trusted to carry. That gun that feeds FMJ reliably might choke on HP's. That is a lot of cash for practice. YMMV

The military used nothing but .45 ball ammo for a long time.

But mostly, I am referring to real world testing on varmints and nuisance critters on my property.
I knew what a FMJ ball round would do to varmints, had to test it a few times.

Imagine my surprise when I shot a possum on top of a bird feeder from less than 6 feet away, using a .45 hollow point. Instead of dropping immediately, it hissed at me, and slowly tried to climb down. It looked like he was sneering in defiance at the inadequate penetration!

In my past experiences at that distance with a vitals shot, he should have fell.

That got me to thinking about how effective a .45 hollow point could be on a 2 legged varmint if it ever came to self defense, and he was wearing a heavy leather/winter coat.

Obviously shot placement is everything, but sometimes that may not be the reality of a 1 second life or death situation.

These are my opinions only, I'm sure others here will chime in and disect and belittle and question everything I said.

What the heck kind of hollowpoints did you use ?

[Neko456]

Though fmj in 45 is better then 9mm fmj, it is my opinion that it is inferior to good JHP ammo in 45acp. The fmj 45acp is mediocre in "Stopping power" and the 45 acp and 357 JHP are two of the best in this field.

FMJ 45acp is adequate but not maximum performance for the gun. I agree if the guns not tested then FMJ maybe best for reliability sake.

[gf45acp]

Carried FMJ in my .45 in NJ for work for years, no other option there.
Never felt unarmed with it. Thankfully, never had to use it on anyone either.

[Steve_NEPhila]

I have carried .45 FMJ for years. Believe me, I have read all the data and stats of ball vs. hollow points, and had many discussions/arguments over it.
IMO unless you have a custom polished feed ramp and barrel throat, there is always a chance that a hollow point could mis-feed, FTF,FTE,etc.

I am speaking only about the 1911 platform here, my experiences, not XD etc.

Plus there is the factor of cost. I think that you should fire at least 400-700 rounds thru a gun before it can be trusted to carry. That gun that feeds FMJ reliably might choke on HP's. That is a lot of cash for practice. YMMV

The military used nothing but .45 ball ammo for a long time.

But mostly, I am referring to real world testing on varmints and nuisance critters on my property.
I knew what a FMJ ball round would do to varmints, had to test it a few times.

Imagine my surprise when I shot a possum on top of a bird feeder from less than 6 feet away, using a .45 hollow point. Instead of dropping immediately, it hissed at me, and slowly tried to climb down. It looked like he was sneering in defiance at the inadequate penetration!

In my past experiences at that distance with a vitals shot, he should have fell.

That got me to thinking about how effective a .45 hollow point could be on a 2 legged varmint if it ever came to self defense, and he was wearing a heavy leather/winter coat.

Obviously shot placement is everything, but sometimes that may not be the reality of a 1 second life or death situation.

These are my opinions only, I'm sure others here will chime in and disect and belittle and question everything I said.

Are you implying that the projectile you fired at basically a large rat did not go all the way through at that distance? I find it about impossible to believe that a .45 ACP HP did not punch through both sides of a possum as described in your story. I know what possums are made of, and steel, kevlar, spectrashield, dragon skin or titanium are not it.

What you and everyone else should be thinking about is how much less powerful firearms are than what hollywood has told us they are. People get shot and usually they do not fly backwards fifteen feet and die instantly. That goes for everything from 9mm to .308 and everything in between and above and below.

Bullets only kill by one of two methods, exsanguination (or bleeding out) and damage to the central nervous system. The most common effect is exsanguination and that may take quite a bit of time to incapacitate or kill an opponent. A firearm gives you a fighting chance, it is no talisman of holy awesomeness and invincibility.

[Steve_NEPhila]

In the world of high performance hollow point and "Glamour" defense cartridges out there I don't hear of too many people loading up with 200 or 230 gr 45 acp Hardball ammo these days. While hollow points do have their advantages so do FMJ's. One would be penetration, your not going to get better penetration than a FMJ round. Second would be shattering bone, heavy FMJ loads are known to crack and blast through bone, and FMJ's even expand upon hitting bone. Third would be feeding reliability, less worries about stovepipes and jams.

Yes I know some will say FMJ's overpenetrate, but that's only true with High speed loads aka 357 Mag, 9mm. and even 38 Special. The 45's big, heavy, slow bullet stays in it's target. Generally if the load is under 1000 fps in 45 Hardball it won't overpenetrate. There are loads out there that fall into that category and still put out 405 ft-lbs. American Eagle, Winchester WB, and Fiocchi come to mind. All at approx 890 to 900 fps. These would make for a good defensive round. The loads lower than 850 fps are target loads, with lower power.

So Question is who here uses 45 Ball ammo in their carry pistols and why do you prefer it ?

For those who don't use it, explain why ?

I also want to address this idea of penetration. The above bold sections have been highlighted and addressed.

Remington 230 grain .45 ACP ammo flying at 835 fps penetrated 27 inches of ballistic gelatin. This contradicts the "wisdom" (which is usually just unscientific guess work or assumptions made from faulty information) above about how the .45 stays in the target. I do not know anyone who has vitals 27 inches thick, the practical standard is about 12-14 inches of penetration into ballistics gel to have optimum results (penetrating enough, without over doing it). That 27 inch number is from Marshall and Sanow's Street Stoppers, appendix A.

To compare that 27 inches of penetration for the FMJ and look at a Golden Saber 230 grain load, it penetrates 14.3 inches in the same medium, which is about optimum. The idea is to damage your target and not to damage others behind your target.

There is no "glamour" in the modern defensive cartridges, there is performance. Performance sells, because for the logical mind performance is what matters. Penetration is great, twice the penetration you need is horrible as it can hurt others unintentionally. Penetration in the order of 27 inches in ballistic gel is not a case of "more is better" it is a case of more is terrible. Ammunition used for defense should not punch through multiple targets, that is not optimal performance.

Let us talk reliability for a minute, as it is very important for a defensive weapon. I mostly shoot revolvers, yet I do of course own and shoot a number of automatic pistols. I have experiences no significant difference in "jams" with hollowpoint ammunition over FMJ ammunition. You have to consider that your individual experiences (being an individual and not a group, thus having limited scope and range of experiences) are not representative of the experiences of a larger group. A sample size of one is not scientifically accepted as being a large enough number to show any trend.

Another generality you present, "Generally if the load is under 1000 fps in 45 Hardball it won't overpenetrate." is entirely false. In fact, this table from Marshall and Sanow's Street Stoppers show entirely the opposite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

This table, which reflects real performance shows that the higher velocity the bullet in this case, the less penetration it achieved. Again, this shows that "wisdom" or popularly held beliefs are incorrect when compared to real data.

In short, there is truth and there is make believe. Get the data, find out what really happens.

[knight0334]

I also want to address this idea of penetration. The above bold sections have been highlighted and addressed.

Remington 230 grain .45 ACP ammo flying at 835 fps penetrated 27 inches of ballistic gelatin. This contradicts the "wisdom" (which is usually just unscientific guess work or assumptions made from faulty information) above about how the .45 stays in the target. I do not know anyone who has vitals 27 inches thick, the practical standard is about 12-14 inches of penetration into ballistics gel to have optimum results (penetrating enough, without over doing it). That 27 inch number is from Marshall and Sanow's Street Stoppers, appendix A.

To compare that 27 inches of penetration for the FMJ and look at a Golden Saber 230 grain load, it penetrates 14.3 inches in the same medium, which is about optimum. The idea is to damage your target and not to damage others behind your target.

There is no "glamour" in the modern defensive cartridges, there is performance. Performance sells, because for the logical mind performance is what matters. Penetration is great, twice the penetration you need is horrible as it can hurt others unintentionally. Penetration in the order of 27 inches in ballistic gel is not a case of "more is better" it is a case of more is terrible. Ammunition used for defense should not punch through multiple targets, that is not optimal performance.

Let us talk reliability for a minute, as it is very important for a defensive weapon. I mostly shoot revolvers, yet I do of course own and shoot a number of automatic pistols. I have experiences no significant difference in "jams" with hollowpoint ammunition over FMJ ammunition. You have to consider that your individual experiences (being an individual and not a group, thus having limited scope and range of experiences) are not representative of the experiences of a larger group. A sample size of one is not scientifically accepted as being a large enough number to show any trend.

Another generality you present, "Generally if the load is under 1000 fps in 45 Hardball it won't overpenetrate." is entirely false. In fact, this table from Marshall and Sanow's Street Stoppers show entirely the opposite:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

This table, which reflects real performance shows that the higher velocity the bullet in this case, the less penetration it achieved. Again, this shows that "wisdom" or popularly held beliefs are incorrect when compared to real data.

In short, there is truth and there is make believe. Get the data, find out what really happens.

That penetration versus velocity discussion is only explained in half-truths.

They dont tell you that expansion and bullet profile are the main factors. In reality, and by default, a faster bullet will penetrate further because of greater energy and momentum, but that greater energy and momentum will more likely cause the bullet to deform more which will cause it to have a greater frontal area to resist further penetration.

It can be proved by taking two 230gr FMJ's, then propel one at 850fps and propel the other at 1000fps - the faster will penetrate further. Comparing faster JHP's versus slower FMJ's to point out that the "faster" will penetrate less is a faulty test standard. The bullet's design determined which penetrated further, not so much the velocity. When you compare two like HP's, the discuss can hold some truth. But not when comparing two unlike bullets.

I can guarantee you that a 500gr FMJ .458" slug from my 45-120 at 2300fps will out penetrate that same 500gr FMJ .458" slug at 1800fps. It will also out penetrate my 300gr JHP's at 2900+fps and 405gr semi-jacketed softnose bullets at 2400fps.