Who's the bad guy here?

[nailer]

After watching what happened in Arizona and other places, this question troubled me. Who's the bad guy here? Situation: I'm cc at the function in Arizona. The shooting begins. I draw my weapon and fire at the shooter. After a short shootout, the shooter is stopped. Meanwhile, police arrive and see me holding a gun. They shoot me! What do I do, so this or something similar doesn't happen?

[Connal]

In the event that I ever had to draw. After the situation was "resolved" I would place my sidearm on the ground, raise my hands, and say "I am not a LEO".

That way, no one percieves me as an "Active threat".

[donm]

This happens even to undercover cops. You don't want to be holding a gun when the cavalry arrives -- and certainly not pointing it at anyone. Holster it if you can, or place it on the ground.

[knight0334]

In the event that I ever had to draw. After the situation was "resolved" I would place my sidearm on the ground, raise my hands, and say "I am not a LEO".

That way, no one percieves me as an "Active threat".

Yep..

Gun on the ground, holster it or place a little distance from you and it(close enough though should another event arise), and get on knees with hands on your head is probably the best thing to do if the LEO's are about to go ape-shit on a hot situation.

The LEO's dont know who is the good, bad, or the ugly - they just know there were shots fired, people hurt, and someone has a gun. If you're the only person standing with a gun in your hand, you might be the last to fall. Be cooperative, without any sudden movements, keep your mouth shut until you speak with an attorney. <-- that is what we were trained to do in armed-guard class in Florida if you acted, the threat is completely neutralized, and LEO' are coming in hot. And consider, that is even when you are in uniform as a guard. Imagine the confusion that would be in the air should you be just a plain clothes citizen and did the same.

[customloaded]

Good question OP. Every year, there are a couple plain CLOTHED POLICE OFFICERS killed while on duty assisting uniformed patrolmen do patrol officer functions.
If they kill their own fellow Co-workers, what do you think could happen to you?

If the threat is neutralized, I would leave the scene, call my attorney, and await his/her advice. I would ensure Law Enforcement is Notified of your involvement as soon as possible but away from the actual scene. Personal safety is paramount and in the situation the OP gives, large crowds are a dangerous place to engage adversaries in. Leaving for your own safety is an option and not illegal.



Police Officer William H. Torbit Jr.
Baltimore City Police Department
Maryland
End of Watch: Sunday, January 9, 2011

Biographical Info
Age: 33
Tour of Duty: 8 years
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)
Date of Incident: Sunday, January 9, 2011
Weapon Used: Officer's handgun
Suspect Info: Not available

Officer William Torbit was accidentally shot and killed by uniformed police officers after responding to a fight at a nightclub on North Paca Street at approximately 1:15 am.

Officer Torbit, who was in plainclothes, was one of the first officers to arrive to a call of a large fight at a nightclub. When he arrived, he began breaking up a fight between several females. As he broke up the fight he was attacked by a group of men.

At some point during the struggle with the males, Officer Torbit drew his service weapon. Responding officers, not realizing Officer Torbit was a police officer, shot and killed him. A second officer was shot and wounded in the foot during the melee.

Officer Torbit had served with the Baltimore City Police Department for eight years.


April 24, 2008 - 2:16pm


Baltimore Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III answers a question during a news conference, Thursday, April 24, 2008, in Baltimore regarding the shooting death of off-duty police officer Norman Stamp by another officer. He said Stamp was shot and killed by another officer Thursday morning after he walked out of a bar with brass knuckles to join a fight outside, then drew a handgun after being hit with a Taser.(AP Photo/Rob Carr) By ALEX DOMINGUEZ
Associated Press Writer


BALTIMORE (AP) - An off-duty officer was shot and killed by another officer early Thursday after he drew a handgun when police tried to quell a brawl at a strip club, police said.

Officer Norman Stamp, 65, was fatally shot after he failed to follow an order to halt and instead drew his weapon, Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III said at a news conference.

The uniformed officer, John Torres, had first used a Taser in an unsuccessful attempt to subdue him, Bealefeld said. Torres did not recognize Stamp, and there was no indication Stamp identified himself as an officer, he said.

Torres, 26, "did what he was taught to do in these types of situations," Bealefeld said.

Officers responded shortly after midnight to reports of a fight outside the Haven Place club. Torres stationed himself by a door to prevent anyone else from joining the melee, and confronted Stamp when he emerged wearing brass knuckles, Bealefeld said.

The jolt from the stun gun caused Stamp to fall to the ground, Bealefeld said, at which point Stamp drew his handgun. After he was shot, Stamp was rushed to a hospital, where he died around 1:30 a.m.

Stamp had been with the department 44 years, making him one of its longest-serving officers.

"Officer Stamp was a mentor to some and a friend to many," Bealefeld said. "This is an incredibly difficult time."

The brawl began after several women came to the bar looking for work and "some people made comments about them," Bealefeld said. Stamp's role had not been determined.

Police spokesman Sterling Clifford said Torres, who joined the department in 2002, would not have recognized Stamp because the older officer had spent several years in the unit that patrols the Inner Harbor.

"He just wouldn't have ever run into him," Clifford said. Torres was placed on administrative duty after the shooting.

Stamp became the seventh person shot and killed by Baltimore police this year, Clifford said.


(Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.)
By ALEX DOMINGUEZ
Associated Press Writer


BALTIMORE (AP) - An off-duty officer was shot and killed by another officer early Thursday after he drew a handgun when police tried to quell a brawl at a strip club, police said.

Officer Norman Stamp, 65, was fatally shot after he failed to follow an order to halt and instead drew his weapon, Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III said at a news conference.

The uniformed officer, John Torres, had first used a Taser in an unsuccessful attempt to subdue him, Bealefeld said. Torres did not recognize Stamp, and there was no indication Stamp identified himself as an officer, he said.

Torres, 26, "did what he was taught to do in these types of situations," Bealefeld said.

Officers responded shortly after midnight to reports of a fight outside the Haven Place club. Torres stationed himself by a door to prevent anyone else from joining the melee, and confronted Stamp when he emerged wearing brass knuckles, Bealefeld said.

The jolt from the stun gun caused Stamp to fall to the ground, Bealefeld said, at which point Stamp drew his handgun. After he was shot, Stamp was rushed to a hospital, where he died around 1:30 a.m.

Stamp had been with the department 44 years, making him one of its longest-serving officers.

"Officer Stamp was a mentor to some and a friend to many," Bealefeld said. "This is an incredibly difficult time."

The brawl began after several women came to the bar looking for work and "some people made comments about them," Bealefeld said. Stamp's role had not been determined.

Police spokesman Sterling Clifford said Torres, who joined the department in 2002, would not have recognized Stamp because the older officer had spent several years in the unit that patrols the Inner Harbor.

"He just wouldn't have ever run into him," Clifford said. Torres was placed on administrative duty after the shooting.

Stamp became the seventh person shot and killed by Baltimore police this year, Clifford said.


(Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed


Police Officer Seneca Bailey Darden
Norfolk Police Department
Virginia
End of Watch: Sunday, May 21, 2006

Biographical Info
Age: 25
Tour of Duty: 4 years
Badge Number: 1297

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)
Date of Incident: Sunday, May 21, 2006
Weapon Used: Gun; Unknown type
Suspect Info: Not available

Officer Seneca Darden was accidentally shot and killed by another officer after responding to the scene of a shooting on Nicholson Street at approximately 11:30 pm.

Officer Darden and his partner were working a plainclothes burglary detail nearby and responded to the location after additional units were requested to search for the suspect in the public housing development.

A large group of residents had gathered in the courtyard as the officers searched for the suspect. Officer Darden and two uniformed officers were taking a man into custody at gunpoint when another officer approached and observed Officer Darden holding his service weapon. Not recognizing Officer Darden, the officer ordered him to drop the weapon. The officer then fired his weapon, striking Officer Darden several times.

The suspect involved in the original shooting was apprehended a short time later.

Officer Darden had served with the Norfolk Police Department for 4 years and was assigned to the 3rd Precinct. He is survived by his wife and 5-year-old daughter.


Just an opinion....consult and attorney and act/react accordingly

CL

[ViperGTS19801]

I imagine, as others have said, that as soon as you stop the immediate threat, you should REHOLSTER immediately, as long as you have the presence of mind to do so (though if you didn't, you probably shouldn't have a gun in the first place). The LAST thing you need to is to have fifteen LEOs coming in hot to a shooter location, and you're the only mufucka standing there with a gun.

[MrVenneri]

Great question OP, and not to hijack but just to continue the original question...

What happens after the police get on the scene and your arrested and taken into custody?

How long can one expect to be sitting behind bars if at all?

What is bail for something such as clear self defense?(for example: neutralizing an armed robber at point blank range)

What can one expect to pay in court/lawyer fees? and most importantly...What is the likelihood of the case being thrown out or declared innocent?

God forbid any of us would ever be confronted with this situation but it could be, and has been, a harsh reality for some of us.

[twoguns]

The OP brings to the fore the importance of proper training.

"What can one expect to pay in court/lawyer fees? and most importantly...What is the likelihood of the case being thrown out or declared innocent?"
It is my understanding that starting costs for defense of a lethal force encounter where you are charged with murder/manslaughter is 100K. Not being charged is the goal. Once you enter the court system it is a crap shoot in many situations/jurisdiction.

Leaving the scene, as one poster has suggested, is guaranteed to complicate your situation. Not good! That is what guilty people do.

Training people! Training can pay big returns if you know how to handle the aftermath.

[Chainsaw]

The interview with the citizen on the scene who was CC is very pertinent. He almost shot "the guy holding the gun." That happened to not be the shooter, but the person who had disarmed him. Very fortunately, he didn't fire. It really points out the dangers of intervening when you don't have all the facts.

It's probably already posted somewhere, but here it is.

Joe Zamudio interview starts at 2min30sec



.

[tonefight]

That would be a tough situation all around. First off getting a clear shot would be risky. Once you draw your firearm hopefully noone else carrying mistakes you for the threat. Definatly something to think about.