CLEOs / Countys That Sign NFA Forms

[Kramer]

PA law allows you to possess a grenade launcher, or mortar, or other DD that isn't a "bomb". Plenty of folks in PA have M-203's that they use for practice chalk rounds, beehive rounds, sub-cal shotgun shell adapters, etc. Just nothing that explodes with any significance.

Apparently you need to be schooled in DDs, there are two types...

Yes, the launchers like the M-203, M79, mortars, AT Rifles, AT Cannons, etc are considered LARGE BORE DDs and are legal in P.A.

The stuff that they shoot that contains more that 1/4oz of explosives and any other items that explode are considered EXPLODING DD and are illegal in P.A..

Monroe County won't sign for a DD, but I think that they do not know that there are two types and one is legal.

[GunLawyer001]

Apparently you need to be schooled in DDs, there are two types...

Apparently I don't.
http://edocs.legalspan.com/PBI/natl_...ep3121.toc.pdf

You included "live motors" (sic) in your list of prohibited DD's. If you meant a "rocket motor" or a "mortar", neither falls within the PA Prohibited Offensive Weapon statute. Neither is a "bomb". PA law doesn't regulate your exciting new category of "exploding DD's", it prohibits "bombs".

Your decision to create 2 categories of DD's is puzzling, since it either creates 2 categories out of 1, or it omits 1 of the 3 subcategories.

4) The term "destructive device" means -
(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas -
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four
ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more
than one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the
preceding clauses;
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell
which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as
particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name
known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a
projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and
which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in
diameter; and
(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for
use in converting any device into any destructive device
described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive
device may be readily assembled.
The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is
neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device,
although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is
redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing,
safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given
by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section
4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the
Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an
antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for
sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.

[Kramer]

Apparently I don't.

You included "live motors" (sic) in your list of prohibited DD's.


Your decision to create 2 categories of DD's is puzzling, since it either creates 2 categories out of 1, or it omits 1 of the 3 subcategories.

I am sorry that I forget that some people need extra help in areas that they do not fully understand.

When I said Live motar I am talking about the actual motar round or projectile not the actual motar tube and cup assembly.

I did not create two categories, once again the ATF has two categories for DDs... large bore and exploding, large bore is legal and exploding is not. Do you understand this concept yet?

Read the ATF handbook on NFA firearms if you need a better explaination. You may know laws but apparently you do not fully know the NFA rules. Regardless of all the fancy stuff you quote unless you fully grasp that the fact that the ATF has two different categories of DDs we can not go any further.

PLEASE READ...

http://www.atf.gov/publications/down...-chapter-2.pdf

Go to page 12,

2.1.8 Destructive Device, then it explains the two types and it even shows pictures for better understanding.

2.1.8.1 Explosive Devices

2.1.8.2. Large Caliber Weapons

[GunLawyer001]

It's spelled MORTAR.

[mjf317]

This thread is an ego club.

This is exactly why forums are lame.

Firstly I'm not saying that you guys are wrong about trying to clarify the DD discussion to each other, I'm simply stating that I don't quite understand why either of you two give a shit or chose to do so in a forum thread which is unrelated.

Second everyone is an armchair hero. Ive never met anyone at the many "free" game land ranges who had ever had a discussion with me on the legality of particular NFA devices - let alone extend an offer to me to tag along to a shoot and watch, or meet like minded individuals. THAT is the place for a discussion like this one, or for that matter the one that Jaybell initiated with me over the particulars of my post.

Third why don't people read the god damned thread header? The thread is for posting CLEO info. If you want to bicker don't hijack the thread...start your own. If you don't like that the CLEO info is here then let the thread die.

IF your CLEO quits signing your forms its because your a fucking idiot and hes a fucking pussy. I personally know mine and there was a time when I didn't, but having the intelligence to initiate a conversation with the man so that he can see your not a total god damned toss isnt all that hard. I don't worry about the fact that one day Moon Child is going to call him telling him how awful firearms are which in turn might make him tuck his balls into his asshole.

In response to gunlawyer:
"So making a list of those who are helpful to the law-abiding, and posting it out there for the haters who want more gun control, is a bad idea, if you are on our side of the fence."

The political function of rights is precisely to protect minorities from oppression by majorities. I have nothing further to say on the matter other than the fact that you idiots will all lose your gun rights one day, because you cant even get unified on a forum. You think that letting your CLEO hide in the shadows helps? Make the man sign a Form 4 every week and OUR situation would greatly improve.

I had deleted the CLEO info. We can now call this thread a waste of space.

I hope you "Super Moderators" banish me. I will lurk from a distance like I always had and gather what information I came here for as an unregistered user.

I didn't go to Fallujah to participate in this shit.

[KMB]

not looking to stir up controversy, just need info (and this thread is the only one that even looked promising). I can totally understand that CLEO's who sign on NFA forms would want to keep it somewhat low key. That said, what are people like me supposed to do? I don't really have any secret connections to any LEO's, I'm just a regular guy. I'm an Allegheny county resident and would love to get some NFA items (cans, an SBR, and eventually maybe an SBS). I have researched the NFA process and I'm pretty clear on what all needs to be done, except for who I can get to sign off for me. I've called the Allegheny Sheriff's firearm # (the office where you get a LTCF) and asked about NFA form signatures, they had no info for me (didn't even really seem to understand what I was on about). Maybe one of you guys who're already in the "secret club" can help initiate me.

[skid-kid]

Indiana county sheriff won't sign for a can, denied yesterday. I will be posting this wherever I can. People should know come elections where they stand with their sheriff. Apparently I'm a criminal in his mind for wanting to own one. I wish when I was deployed I could pick who I was really defending back here. Yes, I am kind of offended over this.

[GunLawyer001]

not looking to stir up controversy, just need info (and this thread is the only one that even looked promising). I can totally understand that CLEO's who sign on NFA forms would want to keep it somewhat low key. That said, what are people like me supposed to do? I don't really have any secret connections to any LEO's, I'm just a regular guy. I'm an Allegheny county resident and would love to get some NFA items (cans, an SBR, and eventually maybe an SBS). I have researched the NFA process and I'm pretty clear on what all needs to be done, except for who I can get to sign off for me. I've called the Allegheny Sheriff's firearm # (the office where you get a LTCF) and asked about NFA form signatures, they had no info for me (didn't even really seem to understand what I was on about). Maybe one of you guys who're already in the "secret club" can help initiate me.

For my clients, I always recommend getting the CLEO signature and registering the NFA firearm in their own name, if at all possible. That's the least complicated plan, and in a legal minefield like the NFA, simpler is better. The fewer hoops to jump through, the less likely you'll trip on one someday.

For clients who can't get their signature, we almost always create an LLC. We used to create corporations, but since LLC's were authorized by PA law they generally work out easier. ATF has been approving transfers to LLC's and corps for decades. I don't like trusts for this, neither does ATF, but ATF will reluctantly approve transfers to trusts.

With LLC's, corps and trusts, you have to have the right paperwork. Your state government creates the LLC's and corps, so they are valid as long as they are registered with the state. With trusts, validity is entirely dependent on how good your documents and management are, and they can be challenged even after your stamps are approved.

So my preferences, in order, are:
Get a signature, from your sheriff, chief of police, county DA, State Police, State Attorney General (unlikely), or any county judge with plenary authority over felony cases.
If that doesn't work, go with an LLC, unless you have a reason for a corp.

[KMB]

Thanks for the reply. I understand all of that, my main question is: who in Allegheny county would I talk to to get that signature? I don't really like the trust/llc option as it entails even more paperwork/fees and isn't 100% ironclad assured to be legal.

[Mabuz]

You've done the right thing so far. Your county sheriff is one way to go, just call again and ask to speak to someone about getting an NFA signoff for a Form 4 (if you're getting an already made suppressor, sbr, etc...).

I'm not sure about Sheriff Mullen's stance on NFA though. He may tell you to go pound sand. He doesn't seem to be very 2A friendly, but I can't speak from experience, other than getting my LTCF during the short time I lived in Allegheny Co.

ANY chief law enforcement officer is able to sign off on your Form 4 though, so you could also ask your local (municipality, city, township) police chief as well.

There are a few other people able to legally sign off for NFA as well, although I can't recall their positions right now (judges, etc...?), a little digging around here should turn them up.