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Thread: cast boolits in 45ACP
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January 3rd, 2011, 06:48 PM #21
Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
I hope your testing regimen includes a chronograph, and btw be sure you have an adequate light source because low light conditions can cause low readings. For a 200 gr. bullet you have to hit 825 fps with 67% of your test cartridges. Last never expect to equal the published velocities, most certainly you will be somewhat lower.
Titegroup will give you adequate velocity to hit the 165,000 PF for IDPA, so will Accurate #5. HP-38 and W231 (basically the same powder) will not reliably do so. I found that as the W231 ages its' potency drops off. I never tested Bullseye for the purpose of hitting IDPA power factor, but I don't think it will get the velocity needed even at maximum charge weight.
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January 3rd, 2011, 08:57 PM #22Senior Member
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Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
Bullseye can reliably, (and safely) hit and exceed the 165k/825 fps number with 200 grain lead bullets in a 5" 1911. Lot-to-lot variation has to be considered, and you might get a slow lot that makes it a bit more work. When I was at AA ballistics lab, +/- 3% of target speed was the std for their propellant; other makers will be similar or better. This is where WW231/HP38 comes in to positively ensure plenty-o-safe velocity at reasonable charge weights.
WW231/HP38 are the exact same propellant with data used interchangeably, and I think actual experience will show its behavior to fall between Bullseye and Unique, favoring Unique. WW231/HP38 is an absolutely fine propellant for the task at hand to meet criteria, and would probably be my #1 choice. Tons of propellants out there can easily do what is needed, and only time at the bench, chronograph, and target stand will sort it out.
Curious Brick, what WW231 charges are you using with 200 lead bullets, and velocity gotten? Can't say I have ever experienced WW231 slowing with age, and now I'm going to have to break out my 1994 vintage WW231, and run it over the chrono and compare.
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January 4th, 2011, 07:23 PM #23
Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
OK Guns, I'll try to answer some of your questions.
Many years ago I gave up on Bullseye for my Bullseye competition loads because the stuff was so sooty. I tried and liked W231 and settled on a load of 4.5 grs. for my 200 gr. target load. That was literally all I used and I was only interested in accuracy for NRA competition.
But, after a number of years of not competing because there is virtually no bullseye shooting in this area, the club I belong to started IDPA so I wanted to give it a try.
Just for grins & giggles I chronoed some of my target loads:
July 2005
My Heavyslide (Nowlin Barrel) gave me an avg of 730 fps
My Hardballer (Colt Barrel) gave me an avg. of 743 fps
both guns were 5" bbls.
In August 2006 I did another quick test using only the Hardballer but with a 5.0 gr charge (from the same 4 lb. keg) my avg. came out to 695.5 fps.
Must of my other testing has been to develop IDPA suitable loads for .38 Spec. since I decided to concentrate on competing with revolvers. But I observed the same thing. Loads tested in Aug would be fine, the same charge would be marginal in Sep and fail the requirement in Oct.
Just this past year I started competing in the ESR division with a 4" barreled Model 25-2. So far I tested Acc#2, Titegroup, and Acc#5 (if you search back in this section of the forum you'll find threads I started covering my results). To date only Acc#5 meets the requirement and that with a charge of 8.3 grs. yielding 833 fps avg. (Note the same charge from my Hardballer yields 896 fps)
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".
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January 4th, 2011, 09:10 PM #24Senior Member
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Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
Hmm, can't say I can explain how a 1/2 grain increase in charge weight, lost significant velocity with all other components the same/same OAL, etc. As I'm sure you know temp can play havoc, and perhaps this somewhat explains the results?
I wonder if the propellant was perhaps in some form of degradation, and that last year really put a whammy on it? These Olin/St Marks propellants seem extremely shelf stable (easily +25 years w/o degradation in good storage). With several year old WW231, H&G 68 clones and my P220, I got: 825 826 801 842 815 fps. Forgot to write the damn temp, so this is FWIW data.
As for AA#5 and 200 gr LSWC's, I dug through my log, and my 5" 1911 recorded an avg of 953 fps w/9 grains, temp was 55. This data was shot in 93, and I still have just a smidge of this same lot. Nice stuff, but to be truthful, Power Pistol is really taking over for a lot of calibers for me.
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January 4th, 2011, 11:54 PM #25
Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
I just got home from King's and talking with Roger and buying some 200gr SWC, 2x 1lb containers of WST(Roger's recommendation) and some primers and new bore snake. He said he used to use Clay's then he got 150lbs of WST and started using it when he couldn't sell it and has not used anything else in 45ACP for 15 years;that was good enough endorsement for me.He said his standard load for any 45 bullet lead of FMJ is 5.1gr of WST, I got 2 containers of it now so we'll see how it shoots, I also have HP38 and I'll get a good load for that too and compare them both.
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January 5th, 2011, 12:03 AM #26Active Member
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Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
The Rogers 200 gr. bullet is based on the H&G #68 a classic bullet except Rogers uses a bevel base. Shot 1000's thru 1911's they love em.
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January 5th, 2011, 07:27 PM #27
Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
I can't speak as to how the powder was degrading only that it was, or at least that was what my testing showed me. Part of the problem might be attributed to buying 4lb or 8lb kegs. Since the stuff sits unused longer. But, the stores in this area don't carry a good selection of powder and I haven't even seen a 1lb can of w231 on a shelf in a couple or three years.
9 grains of Acc#5? Might be a good idea to update your data. Here's what Accurate publishes now:
No.5 200 LC SWC 7.8 902 8.7 1,025 19,400 1.190
See:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-con...d_data_3.4.pdf
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities".
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January 5th, 2011, 09:37 PM #28Senior Member
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Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
No need for me to update, that max charge of AA#5 has been the same since I was there 19 years ago, when the ballistics lab in Bucksnort TN was a single wide trailer, and ladies in a metal shed hand packed AA #5 and their other propellants into plastic bottles via a scoop, a pan, and a mechanical scale; dipping from paper master barrels. Kinda surprised this recipe is the same after all these years.
What I can mention here however, is there was +P data published in Guide #2 (probably #1 too as I recall) which has a max charge of 10 grains for a Hornady 200 gr XTP, and my safe load is an extrapolated split with propellant of the period (I noted it was 93, 1993). Here are the technicals from AA guide #2:
No.5 10.0 grains 1081 fps 22,600 psi
Not in this case specifically, but many times the propellant maker will have max published data below that of other valid labs; some have starts higher/nearly higher than some max, and vice versa, with propellant lot variance being a big reason amongst others as I mentioned in another recent thread. It is always good to be cautious, review many sources of valid data, and fully understand the process of making and developing safe ammo.
I'm sure your post is in the spirit of this, but it is a reminder of why I am so cautious about posting my results even with disclaimers/use at your own risk warnings, and exactly why I removed my data yesterday... I guess after it happening so many times, I developed a 6th sense. Regardless, I am enjoying my new membership here at PAFOA, hope to be able to contribute usefully, and learn a lot from others.
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January 6th, 2011, 07:30 PM #29
Re: cast boolits in 45ACP
I know most of the reloading manuals will not push the data right up to the pressure limit. And to a point it makes sense since they cannot account for all the other variables possible.
What makes things tough for us (afaic) is we don't have a convienent way of testing our loads for pressure. As close as we can get is velocity and when our test velocities run almost 20% below the published data it would be very easy to get into trouble by chasing the published velocity.
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January 7th, 2011, 10:05 AM #30Senior Member
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