Question about RAS/PC...

[ReconLdr]

I stopped by my buddies gun shop last night. While there a customer told me/shop owner about some events at a DUI checkpoint and things just don't add up.(at least for me they don't)

Customer - I got stopped at one of those DUI check points and the cops took my gun and won't give it back.
Shop Owner - You shouldn't drink and drive...
Customer - I wasn't drinking, I was the DD, didn't have a drop to drink all that night.
Me - What were you charged with?
Customer - Nothing
Me - Nothing at all?
Customer - No, they gave me a field sobriety test and portable breath test (0.00 reading) They [LEOs] claimed they could smell the booze on me so they took me to the DUI center for processing. The drunk passengers were allowed to call to arrange other transportation, but me the only sober person in the car gets disarmed and hauled away.
Me - Then what happened?
Customer - They took me to the DUI center and took blood samples and all that stuff, then let me walk out the front door. They refused to give me my pistol back even after I showed them my LTCF.
Me - WTF???

OASN: The customer had a gun on layaway at this shop... but stopped in to see if he could get his money back for lawyer fees.

On to my questions: Assuming the customer is telling the truth about drinking and his BAC on the portable breath test:

1) Does RAS/PC exist to warrant taking him to the DUI center and taking his pistol?

2) Wouldn't a failed sobriety test or positive reading on the PBT be required to warrant a trip to the DUI center?

3) How can they keep his pistol if he isn't charged with anything and was allowed to walk back out the front door of the building?

I don't know the customer but, either he is leaving something out or the LEOs are really stretching the PC/RAS to get DUIs.

[Curmudgeon]

I suspect the guy is leaving information out, if for no other reason than simply because he wants his layaway money back.

However... one need only ask Viper whether a LEO "can" confiscate your property, even illegally... :rollseyes:

[ReconLdr]

I suspect the guy is leaving information out, if for no other reason than simply because he wants his layaway money back.

However... one need only ask Viper whether a LEO "can" confiscate your property, even illegally... :rollseyes:

I agree... but this was not in Philly. My biggest concern is the going to the DUI center if the PBT says 0.00?

[Hawk]

I agree... but this was not in Philly. My biggest concern is the going to the DUI center if the PBT says 0.00?

IANAL, but I think the field tests are to determine if an arrest for DUI is warranted. I'm pretty sure they have to actually arrest you before taking you in for the "official" blood and/or Breathalyzer test. If I'm not mistaken the field tests are not by themselves enough to convict you of DUI. I've read on PA DUI Legal sites that you can refuse the field tests (without automatically loosing your license) but not the "official" Blood/Breathalyzer tests without automatically loosing your license. If you plan on partying (even just a little) and driving, it pays to know the DUI laws in PA.

[ar15jules]

I agree... but this was not in Philly. My biggest concern is the going to the DUI center if the PBT says 0.00?

You are assuming that DUI stands for Driving Under the Influence OF ALCOHOL. The guy very well may have been displaying physical signs of some type of substance use. I wasn't there and don't know, but this is surely a possibility.
Jules

[ViperGTS19801]

In order for them to take you, your friend, or anyone else to the DUI center, they must have established RAS/PC, because to take you there requires detaining/arresting you, by definition.

However, a jackbooted thug of a cop can do whatever he wants in today's society - "You need to get a lawyer and figure it out in front of a judge" is their favorite line to throw at you.

Given what you've said here, the officers were acting very illegaly, but they'll spin it so that it seems like they were just doing their jobs.

There may be more to the story, though. Important details are often left out in these he-said-she-said stories.

[Falcon118]

I don't even think RAS would be enough. For them to take you to another location goes above and beyond a simple investigative detention. IANAL but I believe that when they place their hands on you, at that point you are under arrest, whether you have been informed, or read your rights or not. The question here is what PC was there for an arrest. Sounds like a pay day comming up if the story is true as reported.

[Steve in PA]

1) Failed FST's do not by themselves consitute PC to arrest for suspicion of DUI. They are but one piece to the DUI puzzle.

2) A PBT is used to confirm the presence of alcohol. A 0.00% reading could mean; a) no alcohol, b) possible controlled substance or c) broken PBT.

3) If you are in a car full of drunks, yes the LEO will smell the odor of an alcoholic beverage. The LEO needs to seperate you from them and see if the odor is still there.

4) Letting you walk out the front door is a big mistake on their part. Once they believe you are under the influence of alcohol and take you into custody, you are their responsibility. They should have either given you a ride home or have someone pick you up. If you walked out the door and stumbled into traffic, you have a basis for a law suit against the police.

5) Assuming they believed the person was drunk, they kept the firearm as a precaution. Did he go back the next day when he was no longer "drunk" and try to get the firearm back?

[ReconLdr]

1) Failed FST's do not by themselves consitute PC to arrest for suspicion of DUI. They are but one piece to the DUI puzzle.

According to the customer, he didn't fail the FST. (not sure how he knows he passed or failed... do they tell you on site?)

2) A PBT is used to confirm the presence of alcohol. A 0.00% reading could mean; a) no alcohol, b) possible controlled substance or c) broken PBT.

How often are PBTs found to be malfunctioning? Isn't option "a" a more likely scenario?

3) If you are in a car full of drunks, yes the LEO will smell the odor of an alcoholic beverage. The LEO needs to seperate you from them and see if the odor is still there.

If there is still an odor of booze on someone, (could be on clothing) and the machine tells them 0.00% doesn't that solidify the drivers story of story of being a responsible DD?

4) Letting you walk out the front door is a big mistake on their part. Once they believe you are under the influence of alcohol and take you into custody, you are their responsibility. They should have either given you a ride home or have someone pick you up. If you walked out the door and stumbled into traffic, you have a basis for a law suit against the police.

Just to be clear, this was not ME. The guy told me they gave him everything back (except the gun) and told him he was free to go. (FWIW, this is one of many things that I found to be more than a little odd)

5) Assuming they believed the person was drunk, they kept the firearm as a precaution. Did he go back the next day when he was no longer "drunk" and try to get the firearm back?

AFAIK, he called them the next day and they told him he had to wait for the results of the blood test and/or talk to the judge.

So the general consensus is, if the scenario played out as he [customer] described, there was no PC/RAS for the cops to do what they did???

Again, I don't really know this guy. I met him for the first time last night. My buddy (gun shop owner) only knew him from a few purchases he made over the past year or so. I also believe there is/was more to this story (there always is).

I guess my underlying question was: What does it take for PC to arrest someone for DUI? Is there a cut and dry list of criteria that have to be met or is it subjective?

Example: Guy driving seems to have slurred speech but PBT is 0.00 and fine motor skills appear to be ok... Is that enough to warrant an arrest?

[ar15jules]

Again...the PBT doesn't really apply to anything BUT alcohol.
Jules