When can a LEO ask for your permit?

[utimmer43]

When may a LEO ask to see your CCW?

Suppose I am walking down the street OCing. At that point, there is no justification to be questioned or ID'ed. But, suppose I then get into my vehicle and start to drive away. Can the LEO then pull me over and ask to see my permit?

Maybe I am OCing with my jacket over my shoulder, firearm completely exposed. But as the sun goes down and it starts to get a little cooler outside, I decide to put my jacket on, thus covering my firearm. If an officer sees this happen, is that enough justification to be stopped and have my permit run?

I apologize if this has already been addressed.

[shortthrow50]

i wouldnt see why not. Cop sees you go from OC to concealment. He might thinks its reasonable cause due to that fact knowing OC you dont need a liscence for and then switching to concealment which is a big time no-no if you dont have a liscence.

[AxiTech]

Cops can ask for anything they want, anytime they want. Fact!! Whether or not you give it to them is another story.

[BimmerJon]

If you're not sure, ask if you're being detained.

If YES: For what suspicion of what crime?
------Verbally state loudly that you don't consent to ANY searches or Seizures of any kind.
------Ask if you are being "asked" or "ordered" to do something. If only asked, politely decline
If No: Walk away

* Carry a video/audio recorder if you like and my advice in no way HAS TO be followed by you. Make your own choices : >


Oldest cop trick in the book: "Asking" for you to do something... 99% of the people interpret it as "I have to"
Second oldest is lying that you have to do it or you'll be in trouble: Pays to learn the law.

[MostlyHarmless]

Cops can ask for anything they want, anytime they want. Fact!!

Anyone can ask for anything they want, anytime. Fact!!

I can walk up to the next chick in the mall and ask her to perform some personal favor ... her response may not be exactly what I asked for, but I can ask, can't I?

At least once.


Jan

[utimmer43]

OK, I see that I should have worded my question slightly differently. In the scenarios I mentioned above, would I be required by law to produce my permit? Realize that no law has been broken by any of my actions. Is simply going from OC to CC reasonable suspicion to REQUIRE that I produce my permit?

My initial belief would be no it isn't, for this reason... For the law abiding citizen, OC in and of itself is not a crime. But it would be illegal for a felon (or other disqualified person) to OC. However, If a LEO does not KNOW the OCer to be a disqualified person, there is no reasonable cause to detain, ID, etc.

Along the same line, I would think that a LEO witnessing someone going from OC to CC has no reasonable suspicion that the person is not licensed.

Does anyone know of any past cases or have any similar experience? (BTW, this is all hypothetical. I'm not in any kind of hot water, I just dwell on what-ifs.)

[leeam]

OK, I see that I should have worded my question slightly differently. In the scenarios I mentioned above, would I be required by law to produce my permit? Realize that no law has been broken by any of my actions. Is simply going from OC to CC reasonable suspicion to REQUIRE that I produce my permit?

My initial belief would be no it isn't, for this reason... For the law abiding citizen, OC in and of itself is not a crime. But it would be illegal for a felon (or other disqualified person) to OC. However, If a LEO does not KNOW the OCer to be a disqualified person, there is no reasonable cause to detain, ID, etc.

Along the same line, I would think that a LEO witnessing someone going from OC to CC has no reasonable suspicion that the person is not licensed.

Does anyone know of any past cases or have any similar experience? (BTW, this is all hypothetical. I'm not in any kind of hot water, I just dwell on what-ifs.)

If an officer sees someone driving, is the possibility that they don't have a drivers license enough to justify a stop to check for a license? I'd say no and I'd bet the courts would agree with that. Similarly I think that the mere act of carrying a concealed firearm (even in a vehicle) is not enough for RAS of a crime, however I would not bet the courts would agree.

IANAL and I'm not aware of any cases that have clarified this issue. Proceed at your own risk.

[IronSight]

Municipal Police Officers’ Education & Training Commission, 2009 Legal Update

http://www.thecrimsonpirate.com/rtkb...pdate_2009.pdf

Question #3- What can police legally do when they observe a person engaging in
open carry?
Answer #3- In most cases, the police cannot engage the person in anything other
than a mere encounter. Unless the person engaged in lawful open carry is in
violation of a specific State or Federal firearm prohibition or is carrying in a
restricted area (For example: prohibitions contained in §6105, possession by a
minor §6110.1, possession on school property §912, possession in a court
facility §913, carrying in Philadelphia §6108, carrying in a vehicle, carrying
during a declared state of emergency §6107), the officer would not have specific
reasonable suspicion of criminal activity merely based on observing a person
engaged in open carry. Therefore, a stop and frisk or any other seizure would
not be legally justified.

[acosenza2]

If you are OC'ing then you do not have to produce your LTCF for the LEO as you have committed no crime and there is no RAS. However, if you get into your vehicle of put on your coat or cover your gun with a garment, then you would technically be CC'ing and the officer can ask you for your LTCF and you are legally obligated to produce it. Please note: this is my opinion based on my understanding of the UFA and I am not a lawyer.