Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Class III as an investment

    Does anyone actually buy Class 3 machine guns as an investment because you can't buy any of them that were made after 1986?



    Just curious.
    "If the individual can govern himself, all external government is tyranny" - Benjamin Tucker.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    People do. Those that did early, profited handsomely. Some have noted that prices started to skyrocket with widespread internet access. So, some of that may have subsided.

    They don't make them anymore. So, prices should continue to rise. But, there's a risk beyond the speculation of prices rising. All of it can be taken away with the stroke of a pen and then your investment is worthless.

    Also, somebody might have purchased M16s for $1500 or so in the early 90s. Now they might sell for $10K-$20K. But - the increase in price has been driven by the increased popularity among normal people. Not increased popularity among the rich. Many people say they can't afford a $2,500 MAC or a $10,000 M16. But if they really wanted one, they could afford it. That's not out of line with most people's means, it's out of line with many people's priorities. If prices increased tenfold in the next 20 years like they did in the last 20 years, they would no longer be affordable for most people. Demand would drop at some point between here and there, so I don't see those prices being realized.

    Then again, who knows. Nobody would have anticipated the run-up in prices over the past 20 years.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    In today's soft market, possibly. Prices are down, so now is the time to buy if you have the cash. Like any market it will have ups and downs. Now its down. Will ot go back up, who knows.

    Back in the 80s, a Colt A1-M16 was around $1200. Now they are being listed, not sure if sold, for $18-20k NIB.

    Esp belt fed weapons. Last year and even now if you look, you could find 1919s for under $14k, M60s under $18k, and M2s around $16k
    Just try to feed it LOL
    Last edited by Nate7667; October 18th, 2010 at 10:48 PM. Reason: ungawa on the trigger before me

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    If you want a machine-gun, have the money and enjoy he benefits of owning one, then go ahead and get it.

    If you purely want a return on your investment, your money is better spent somewhere else.
    ==============
    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!”
    ~Samuel Adams

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    +1 with what the others have said.

    Machine gun dealers will be leading the chant that MGs are a can't-lose investment. That said, three of the dealers that I know personally had horrible business in 2009 and in 2010 it's only started to come back -- but not much.

    The very wealthy will always have the $$$ to purchase MG toys, but many so inclined already have what they want. The market is driven by demand of the Middle Class, those that can afford and have no problem spending $5000 to $15000 on an MG, or scrimping a bit to spring for $25000 Thompson or BAR or something in a beltfed. Because the recession hurt the Middle Class the hardest and destroyed consumer spending confidence, MGs aren't selling and prices have softened.

    When will the MG market really turn around? A year or so after the economy is fully back up to steam, IF that ever happens. Standing in the way is the lack of high-paying manufacturing jobs exported to Mexico and Asia, and IT/MIS jobs that have been outsourced to predominantly India. There aren't as many Middle Class big spenders as there were, and that's why sales of new automobiles and light trucks are still less than 10 million units annually, as opposed to the peak of over 17 million a few years ago. Many auto plants aren't working the OT they used to, and many autoworkers who used to make $120,000 to $200,000 a year in straight time and overtime are now having to make do with $120,000 or even less, making payments on an Avalanche, a couple cars, a boat, a lake cottage, and a five bedroom suburban home.

    Tack on those who have outright lost their jobs, which is industry and geography-dependent. If the national average unemployment is ~10%, that means some places are better, some are worse. IMO, the Lehigh Valley and the northern Philthadelphia suburbs are in "What recession?" mode -- when I visit my daughter in college in Allentown it seems as if it's "business as usual" -- stores and restaurants are as full as they were three years ago. Out west here in the "PA Wilds" (don't get me started) 15%+ are out of work depending on the county, and NOT MANY are spending money. Guys I know that bought MGs in the past four to six years have sold them, or are trying to sell them because they either need the $$$ or they are scared for the future of their economic situation.

    There is only ONE reason to buy an MG -- to enjoy it. Don't drink the MG dealer kool-aid. Invest elsewhere.

    Noah
    Wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    There is effort underway to get the '86 Ban overturned in the next 5-10 years and it will likely succeed, so if you're thinking of it as an investment I would keep that time frame in mind. The only reason the NFA and GCA have stood as long as they have was because of the Cruikshank and Miller decisions being unchallenged, and now they have almost been voided and the laws that rely upon them are on VERY shaky ground. The '86 ban is on especially thin ice because it cannot meet strict or intermediate scrutiny standards and fails most criteria of legal consistency.
    Last edited by Yellowfin; October 19th, 2010 at 02:16 PM.
    "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" -- Penn Jillette

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    Even if the Fed lifts the ban about 1/2 the sates already have banned machine guns. The 86 Ban will never be overturned. I would love to see it happen but it will not. PS: I own a HK53 with sear so I stand to lose but it would be worth to to buy all the others on the wish list.
    Last edited by C-VENN; October 19th, 2010 at 04:15 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    Quote Originally Posted by Yellowfin View Post
    There is effort underway to get the '86 Ban overturned in the next 5-10 years and it will likely succeed, so if you're thinking of it as an investment I would keep that time frame in mind. The only reason the NFA and GCA have stood as long as they have was because of the Cruikshank and Miller decisions being unchallenged, and now they have almost been voided and the laws that rely upon them are on VERY shaky ground. The '86 ban is on especially thin ice because it cannot meet strict or intermediate scrutiny standards and fails most criteria of legal consistency.
    This is not the first time you have posted this.
    Yet you never really get details to this up-rising.
    Please share.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    IMO the '86 ban on new manufacture transferable Machine Guns was a "here, this will make you feel good" sop to some of the liberals in Congress that stood in the way of other legislation the conservatives supported at the time.

    MGs have NOT been a crime issue. Only one or two MGs were used in crimes since NFA 1934. I'd venture to say that the majority of lawmakers in Washington are unaware that MG ownership is legal in the US unless proscribed by state law.

    BATFE actually LIKES NFA weapons because of the $200 transfer tax on everything but AOWs, which are taxed $5. When you write that check, you write it to the BATFE, and NOT the "US Treasury." The annual transfer tax $$$ paid each year runs between $14 million and $20 million, and that cash stays with the BATFE even though it is now part of DOJ and not Treasury, and is used in the BATFE annual budget. BATFE isn't about to break their own rice bowl by supporting tougher MG regulations.

    Follow the money.

    Noah
    Wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Class III as an investment

    Quote Originally Posted by Nate7667 View Post
    This is not the first time you have posted this.
    Yet you never really get details to this up-rising.
    Please share.
    Just what I was thinking.

    About eight to ten years ago, there was a group trying to repeal the 86 ban, the 1934 Group, they finally went under without any success.

    If something was supposed to happen in five to ten years, it should be building steam now in order to make it in the end.
    Last edited by Kramer; October 31st, 2010 at 08:34 PM.

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