Logistics of borrowing a firearm

[Mad Scientist]

One of the good friends of our family has Parkinson's. He has started to develop a lot of paranoia, and has been found in his backyard searching for "them". Armed. This is a Bad Thing™, and everyone agrees that the guns should leave his house.

I have my LTCF, so I can keep them safe for him [6115(b)(1)(i)]. Since my wife works very close to their house, can she pick up the guns (shot gun and pistol) and bring them home tomorrow, or do I need to run down there myself? She does NOT have her LTCF, but I think 6106(b)(13) would cover the situation. Thoughts?

[kcr121]

One of the good friends of our family has Parkinson's. He has started to develop a lot of paranoia, and has been found in his backyard searching for "them". Armed. This is a Bad Thing™, and everyone agrees that the guns should leave his house.

I have my LTCF, so I can keep them safe for him [6115(b)(1)(i)]. Since my wife works very close to their house, can she pick up the guns (shot gun and pistol) and bring them home tomorrow, or do I need to run down there myself? She does NOT have her LTCF, but I think 6106(b)(13) would cover the situation. Thoughts?

I wouldn't count on 18 PA C.S. §6106 (b) (13) to cover your wife in that situation. It's worded strangely ("and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued"), and it specifically mentions a "spouse or parent owning the firearm".

I think the intent of the language is to provide an exception for an unlicensed spouse who is driving a vehicle in which the other spouse's firearm is located, if the other spouse is licensed and the vehicle is registered to one or both of them. Because neither you or your wife are the owner of the firearm, she would not appear to be excepted.

18 PA C.S. §6106: Firearms not to be carried without a license

(a) Offense defined.--

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

...

(13) Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

[ErSwnn]

One of the good friends of our family has Parkinson's. He has started to develop a lot of paranoia, and has been found in his backyard searching for "them". Armed. This is a Bad Thing™, and everyone agrees that the guns should leave his house.

I have my LTCF, so I can keep them safe for him [6115(b)(1)(i)]. Since my wife works very close to their house, can she pick up the guns (shot gun and pistol) and bring them home tomorrow, or do I need to run down there myself? She does NOT have her LTCF, but I think 6106(b)(13) would cover the situation. Thoughts?

It sounds like your best bet is to just go get them yourself. Why take a chance on getting jammed up when all your trying to do is a favor for the sake of everyone's safety? I'd be shocked if a judge ruled against you but why risk it.

[Xringshooter]

You probably should pick them up yourself, just so there was no question about what went on. I would also have something on paper either from the owner or his wife giving a statement of facts as to the events and why you are storing them at your home. Also, attach a tag to each of the guns you are storing with owners name, address, etc and the date you took them into custody, again, just in case any questions arise.

Next question, does he have any children? If so, how do they feel about a non family member storing the guns.

Also, is the gentleman lucid enough to give you the permission to do this? If so, he needs to sign the paperwork stating he has given his permission for this to take place. If he is not of sound mind, did his spouse give the permission? If so, she needs to sign the paperwork. Have a solid paper trail, otherwise you may find yourself trying to explain to the local authorities why you have this persons guns in your house with no permission. Down the road, Mr or Mrs may say something like, "Well, 2 months ago Jim came over and took my husbands guns and I think he has them at his house." Well, here comes the authorities "why do you have Mr. Jones' guns?" You try to explain, and they say "Prove it". You whip out all the SIGNED documents and you're in the clear (maybe).

There are probably other scenerios, dealing with mental health problems, that could cause the authorities to stick their heads into this situation. especially if someone had seen him stalking "them" with a gun and called the police to report it. What you are doing is not a bad idea, it may keep the bureaucracy out of it.

[knight0334]

I concur with kcs121.

That section of law is more for when a spouse or parent leaves his/her own gun in the vehicle and then his/her spouse or child operates that vehicle.

[ErSwnn]

You probably should pick them up yourself, just so there was no question about what went on. I would also have something on paper either from the owner or his wife giving a statement of facts as to the events and why you are storing them at your home. Also, attach a tag to each of the guns you are storing with owners name, address, etc and the date you took them into custody, again, just in case any questions arise.

Next question, does he have any children? If so, how do they feel about a non family member storing the guns.

Also, is the gentleman lucid enough to give you the permission to do this? If so, he needs to sign the paperwork stating he has given his permission for this to take place. If he is not of sound mind, did his spouse give the permission? If so, she needs to sign the paperwork. Have a solid paper trail, otherwise you may find yourself trying to explain to the local authorities why you have this persons guns in your house with no permission. Down the road, Mr or Mrs may say something like, "Well, 2 months ago Jim came over and took my husbands guns and I think he has them at his house." Well, here comes the authorities "why do you have Mr. Jones' guns?" You try to explain, and they say "Prove it". You whip out all the SIGNED documents and you're in the clear (maybe).

There are probably other scenerios, dealing with mental health problems, that could cause the authorities to stick their heads into this situation. especially if someone had seen him stalking "them" with a gun and called the police to report it. What you are doing is not a bad idea, it may keep the bureaucracy out of it.

A bit off topic but related, the owner or their representative should also keep signed records in such a case. When my BIL got funky in the head my sister had a friend store his 3 hunting rifles. She handed them over figuring the guy is a hunter (I'm not) and would get some use out of them, then give them to her husband's son and SIL upon his death. Well, the trusted friend sold them. "Oh...I thought you gave them to me." Turns out the guy wasn't what he seemed. Right before they declared bankruptcy they ran up all the credit they could. So I would suggest anyone who finds themselves in this position cover all the bases, whether your the owner or the friend.

[dk99358]

A bit off topic but related, the owner or their representative should also keep signed records in such a case. When my BIL got funky in the head my sister had a friend store his 3 hunting rifles. She handed them over figuring the guy is a hunter (I'm not) and would get some use out of them, then give them to her husband's son and SIL upon his death. Well, the trusted friend sold them. "Oh...I thought you gave them to me." Turns out the guy wasn't what he seemed. Right before they declared bankruptcy they ran up all the credit they could. So I would suggest anyone who finds themselves in this position cover all the bases, whether your the owner or the friend.

A guy on another forum has a saying "people are phuckers". I think that sure applies here. ErSwnn has offered excellent advice IMO.

Dale

[Mad Scientist]

You probably should pick them up yourself, just so there was no question about what went on.

Yup. I grabbed them myself just to keep everyone safe.

Next question, does he have any children? If so, how do they feel about a non family member storing the guns.

He has 2 kids, who are both old enough that they could be given these guns themselves, and are interested in having them. However, neither of them has gotten around to moving out yet so they cannot safely take these at this point. The guns would still be "in the house". They do agree with the plan that their Mom and I have put together.

Also, is the gentleman lucid enough to give you the permission to do this? If so, he needs to sign the paperwork stating he has given his permission for this to take place. If he is not of sound mind, did his spouse give the permission? If so, she needs to sign the paperwork. Have a solid paper trail, otherwise you may find yourself trying to explain to the local authorities why you have this persons guns in your house with no permission. Down the road, Mr or Mrs may say something like, "Well, 2 months ago Jim came over and took my husbands guns and I think he has them at his house." Well, here comes the authorities "why do you have Mr. Jones' guns?" You try to explain, and they say "Prove it". You whip out all the SIGNED documents and you're in the clear (maybe).

There are probably other scenerios, dealing with mental health problems, that could cause the authorities to stick their heads into this situation. especially if someone had seen him stalking "them" with a gun and called the police to report it. What you are doing is not a bad idea, it may keep the bureaucracy out of it.

I realized on the way home that I ought to have some paperwork to cover this. At the time, I was only concerned about keeping him, his family and his neighbors physically safe. Now it's time to worry about keeping me legally safe. I need a copy of a statement that I am holding these in the short term with someone's explicit permission. Since he himself will NOT be getting them back, do I need a copy of some statement that he is giving them to his wife or kids, or can I just give them back to the estate when the time comes? Any other documents I should think about?

It's a trying time for their family, and I'm grateful for all of the help you all have offered here in making this aspect a little better.

[Mad Scientist]

A bit off topic but related, the owner or their representative should also keep signed records in such a case. When my BIL got funky in the head my sister had a friend store his 3 hunting rifles. She handed them over figuring the guy is a hunter (I'm not) and would get some use out of them, then give them to her husband's son and SIL upon his death. Well, the trusted friend sold them. "Oh...I thought you gave them to me." Turns out the guy wasn't what he seemed. Right before they declared bankruptcy they ran up all the credit they could. So I would suggest anyone who finds themselves in this position cover all the bases, whether your the owner or the friend.

I'll be sure I have a copy AND a copy is left with the wife of any documents we sign. Do I need to involve a notary, or is that overkill?

Thanks again, all of you.

[max384]

I'll be sure I have a copy AND a copy is left with the wife of any documents we sign. Do I need to involve a notary, or is that overkill?

Thanks again, all of you.

When it comes to you legally protecting yourself, is there a such thing as overkill? I'd feel more comfortable having it notorized... though it's probably not necessary.