License to Carry vs

[donquixote1955]

License to carry concealed. Don't know if this has ever been discussed before but; I have a LTC issued from the Allegheny County Sheriff, it's marked License to carry firearms, implying one must be licensed to carry, period. Here in PA this is not the case, one must have a license ONLY if they wish to carry concealed on their person or in a vehicle. As PA law doesn't address open carry directly then it is by proxy legal to do so. I'd like to know others opinions on why Licenses to Carry CONCEALED have only the words license to carry firearms.

[knight0334]

It is just a title and means nothing, just like "CWP" is in other states that require a permit to conceal but still allow unlicensed open carry. Its just like the usage of "license" instead of "permit" - both mean the same thing.

And in PA there really is no official title designated by law to our license. The PSP has given an informal title of License To Carry Firearms via one of the regulations.

[kcr121]

License to carry concealed. Don't know if this has ever been discussed before but; I have a LTC issued from the Allegheny County Sheriff, it's marked License to carry firearms, implying one must be licensed to carry, period. Here in PA this is not the case, one must have a license ONLY if they wish to carry concealed on their person or in a vehicle. As PA law doesn't address open carry directly then it is by proxy legal to do so. I'd like to know others opinions on why Licenses to Carry CONCEALED have only the words license to carry firearms.

Because it doesn't just allow you to carry concealed. It also allows you to carry openly or concealed in Philadelphia, for starters. It also allows you to carry openly or concealed in a vehicle.

If the word "concealed" was on the license, before you knew it, we'd have all sorts of folks telling us that firearms must be concealed.

[jcabin]

wow. It is a License to Carry Firearms. Your implications theory is wrong.

[knight0334]

Because it doesn't just allow you to carry concealed. It also allows you to carry openly or concealed in Philadelphia, for starters. It also allows you to carry openly or concealed in a vehicle.

If the word "concealed" was on the license, before you knew it, we'd have all sorts of folks telling us that firearms must be concealed.

Just like having the present title imply that one must have a license to simply carry, except of course in Philly or during an emergency. ...the sword cuts both ways. There are people who think you must have a license just to carry just because of the title of the license.

[knight0334]

I've said it before, the title means nothing. Only the controlling text of law does. What if our legislators chosen to call it a permit, in reference to something else, and had controlling exemptions for concealed/vehicle/Philly/emergency carry of firearms?


The law could have looked like this:

Title 18, Chapter 61

Subsection 6102: Definitions
"Blow bubbles out ones butt." The act of farting and blowing a stank bubble of fluids, mucus, or firm matter.

Subsection 6106: Bubbles not to be blown out a butt and firearms not to be carried without a license
(a) No person shall blow bubbles out their butts, or carry a concealed firearm on or abouts ones person, or in a vehicle, except in their place of abode or fixed place of work.

(b) Exemptions
(12) A person who has a lawfully issued permit to blow bubbles out ones butt to blow bubble with ones butt and to carry a firearm pursuant to section 6109 (relating to permits) and that said permit expired within six months prior to the date of arrest and that the individual is otherwise eligible for renewal of the permit.


Subsection 6109: Issuance of Permits
(a) Purpose of permit.--A permit to blow bubble outs ones but or to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of blowing bubbles with ones but or carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle throughout this Commonwealth.
(b) Place of application.--An individual who is 21 years of age or older may apply to a sheriff for a permit to blow bubbles out ones butt, to carry a firearm concealed on or about his person or in a vehicle within this Commonwealth. If the applicant is a resident of this Commonwealth, he shall make application with the sheriff of the county in which he resides or, if a resident of a city of the first class, with the chief of police of that city.

PA Codes, Chapter33, Subsection 33.115

Pennsylvania permit to blow bubbles out ones butt.

(a) The Pennsylvania permit to blow bubbles out ones butt (as defined in section 6102 of the act (relating to definitions)) form, shall be constructed as a three-part form, 3 inches by 5 3/8 inches in dimension, on white paper. The issuing authorities, that is, county sheriff or a chief of police for a city of the first class, shall utilize the form as prescribed by the State Police.

(b) The Pennsylvania permit to blow bubbles out ones butt (as defined in section 6102 of the act) shall be typewritten, computer generated or printed in blue or black ink with a ballpoint pen. Copies shall contain legible impressions. A photograph of the applicant may be placed on the oermit if required by the issuing authority.

(c) The form is designed to be folded in half and may be laminated. At the option of the entity furnishing the form, the paper weight of each part may be a minimum of 14 pounds up to a maximum of 28 pounds, and impressions may be produced by utilizing either carbon inserts or no carbon required (NCR) paper. Forms shall be numbered in numerical sequence and the size of the permit numbers shall be at least 3/16 of an inch. The first two numbers shall be the county location code followed by the permit number—for example, if the permit was issued by Dauphin County, the permit number would be 22-0000001, and so on.

(d) Under section 6109 of the act (relating to permits), the original shall be issued to the permit and be valid for 5 years from date of issue, unless revoked sooner. The first copy shall be transmitted by the issuing authority within 7 business days by first class mail to the State Police, Attention: Firearm Unit, 1800 Elmerton Avenue, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17110. The second copy shall be retained by the issuing authority for 6 years.

[wa3ra]

Of course, blowing bubbles out one's butt lends a whole new level of nasty to 'negligent discharge', and Philly would still pull your license for one...

[alowe56]

Because it doesn't just allow you to carry concealed. It also allows you to carry openly or concealed in Philadelphia, for starters. It also allows you to carry openly or concealed in a vehicle.

If the word "concealed" was on the license, before you knew it, we'd have all sorts of folks telling us that firearms must be concealed.

Here in Michigan, they try to tell us that all the time. I just pull out my latest copy of Michigan's firearm laws, hand it to them and ask them to show me where it says I MUST carry concealed.

Of course, they can't, since it doesn't exist.

[leeam]

License to carry concealed. Don't know if this has ever been discussed before but; I have a LTC issued from the Allegheny County Sheriff, it's marked License to carry firearms, implying one must be licensed to carry, period. Here in PA this is not the case, one must have a license ONLY if they wish to carry concealed on their person or in a vehicle. As PA law doesn't address open carry directly then it is by proxy legal to do so. I'd like to know others opinions on why Licenses to Carry CONCEALED have only the words license to carry firearms.

As was stated, the LTCF allows you to do more than "only" carry concelaed or in a vehicle. It allows you to (starting with the least mentioned):

1) Carry in states other than PA (for which PA has a reciprocity agreement)
2) Carry during an emergency proclaimed by a State or municipal governmental executive
3) Carry a borrowed handgun (from someone other than spouse/child/parent/grandparent)
4) Carry within 1000 feet of a school zone (federal law requires having a gun permit/license from the state in which the school resides)
5) Carry openly in Philadelphia (you can OC anywhere in PA without a license except Philadelphia)

You see, the law doesn't mention OC, so it's legal, but the law does mention these other uses for a LTCF. Applying a restrictive label to LTCFs would imply these other situations, which are not unique to CCing, are not valid. Therefore I believe the generic title is far more suitable, since it allows for much more than just concealing. I may have forgotten to list some things as well.

[Bodero]

As was stated, the LTCF allows you to do more than "only" carry concelaed or in a vehicle. It allows you to (starting with the least mentioned):

1) Carry in states other than PA (for which PA has a reciprocity agreement)
2) Carry during an emergency proclaimed by a State or municipal governmental executive
3) Carry a borrowed handgun (from someone other than spouse/child/parent/grandparent)
4) Carry within 1000 feet of a school zone (federal law requires having a gun permit/license from the state in which the school resides)
5) Carry openly in Philadelphia (you can OC anywhere in PA without a license except Philadelphia)

You see, the law doesn't mention OC, so it's legal, but the law does mention these other uses for a LTCF. Applying a restrictive label to LTCFs would imply these other situations, which are not unique to CCing, are not valid. Therefore I believe the generic title is far more suitable, since it allows for much more than just concealing. I may have forgotten to list some things as well.

Thanks for the great list, rep sent. I come from anti-gun NY where you need a permit merely to OWN a firearm in your own home (and in a Shall Issue state, how does that withstand scrutiny under McDonald v. NRA?). They are amazed that we can own firearms without requesting permission from the state. Now I can tell them what benefits, other than the obvious, a LTCF provides.