can gun shops refuse to sell?

[aykayeh]

I've encountered at least one gun shop that refuses to sell to green-card holding residents. Usual rules require production of the green card, suitable id, and now 90 days worth of utility bills, or similar, as proof of residence. I'm wondering if it is legal for a gun shop owner to add another rule, and refuse to sell to 'aliens' (lpr's: legal permanent residents), of which I am one. The stated reason was that the owner did not want to sell to Mexicans (doesn't apply to me, but still) who might use guns to kill Americans. I suspect this behavior is illegitimate, but don't know the law. Any ideas?

[NikeBauer21]

IIRC, gun shops can refuse to sell to anyone they feel is a risk or suspicious. If they feel strongly that the person is making a straw purchase, they can refuse. If they feel the person is going to use it specifically for a crime, they can refuse to sell.. However, obviously, a business can not discriminate based on race, religion, gender, etc. But being a gun shop owner requires some suspicion at times. I'm not sure as far as the green card or immigration aspect though. I'd imagine, if they were basing it solely on not selling to Mexicans, they could get into some trouble. But they may be trying to justify it under the "suspicion factor", I don't know.

This is just my understanding, and what I've been told.



IANAL

[velkly]

http://www.legalzoom.com/us-law/equa...refuse-service

The Right to Refuse Service: Can a Business Refuse Service to Someone Because of Appearance, Odor or Attitude?
Leanne Phillips - Oct 2007
Is it a violation of your civil rights for a business to refuse to serve you because of the way you look, the way you smell, or the way you act? The answer is...it depends.

The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."

The right of public accommodation is also guaranteed to disabled citizens under the Americans with Disabilities Act, which precludes discrimination by businesses on the basis of disability.


In addition to the protections against discrimination provided under federal law, many states have passed their own Civil Rights Acts that provide broader protections than the Federal Civil Rights Act. For example, California's Unruh Civil Rights Act makes it illegal to discriminate against individuals based on unconventional dress or sexual preference.

In the 1960s, the Unruh Civil Rights Act was interpreted to provide broad protection from arbitrary discrimination by business owners. Cases decided during that era held that business owners could not discriminate, for example, against hippies, police officers, homosexuals, or Republicans, solely because of who they were.

In cases in which the patron is not a member of a federally protected class, the question generally turns on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, in a recent case, a California court decided that a motorcycle club had no discrimination claim against a sports bar that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the refusal of service was not based on the club members' unconventional dress, but was to protect a legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members.

On the other hand, a California court decided that a restaurant owner could not refuse to seat a gay couple in a semi-private booth where the restaurant policy was to only seat two people of opposite sexes in such booths. There was no legitimate business reason for the refusal of service, and so the discrimination was arbitrary and unlawful.

In one more complicated case, a court held that a cemetery could exclude "punk rockers" from a private funeral service. A mother requested that the funeral service for her 17-year-old daughter be private and that admission to the service be limited to family and invited guests only. The cemetery failed to exclude punk rockers from the service. The punk rockers arrived in unconventional dress, wearing makeup and sporting various hair colors. One was wearing a dress decorated with live rats. Others wore leather and chains, some were twirling baton-like weapons, drinking, and using cocaine. The punk rockers made rude comments to family members and were generally disruptive of the service.

Ironically, the funeral business had attempted to rely on the Unruh Civil Rights Act, claiming that if they had denied access to the punk rockers, they would have been in violation of the Act. But the court held that the punk rockers' presence had deprived the deceased person's family of the services of the business establishment, which were meant to provide comfort to grieving family members. On that basis, the court stated that the funeral business could have legitimately denied access to the punk rockers.

It's interesting to note that while it is unlawful to refuse service to certain classes of people, it is not unlawful to provide discounts on the basis of characteristics such as age. Business establishments can lawfully provide discounts to groups such as senior citizens, children, local residents, or members of the clergy in order to attract their business.

Like many issues involving constitutional law, the law against discrimination in public accommodations is in a constant state of change. Some argue that anti-discrimination laws in matters of public accommodations create a conflict between the ideal of equality and individual rights. Does the guaranteed right to public access mean the business owner's private right to exclude is violated? For the most part, courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations outweighs the individual liberties involved.

[aykayeh]

thanks for those replies, what I suspected. And of course if someone made a personal objection about me individually I could deal with that on its merits. In this case the store announced a general policy and refused to sell to me because I'm a member of a group, legal residents, that they apparently discriminate against.

[NikeBauer21]

thanks for those replies, what I suspected. And of course if someone made a personal objection about me individually I could deal with that on its merits. In this case the store announced a general policy and refused to sell to me because I'm a member of a group, legal residents, that they apparently discriminate against.

If that is indeed the case, I'd definitely take my money elsewhere to make my purchase.

[wa3ra]

Here you are, going through the system using the correct, pain-in-the-ass, take a million years method, or even if you are just a permanent resident alien, and the owner is refusing to sell for THAT?

I'm sorry that happened to you, but find another shop...sounds like Cap'n Ammurrica doesn't need your business anyway; give the money to someone more deserving.

[Robert Kayland]

The stated reason was that the owner did not want to sell to Mexicans (doesn't apply to me, but still) who might use guns to kill Americans.

Yeah, we Amurrikins prefer to be shot by our own kind.

This is my proposed Sell-A-Gun-To-An-Hispanic go/nogo chart:

Go................................................ .............................. No Go

[LorDiego01]

I have bought several firearms with a green card.

You need a green card, a driver's license, and at least three separate bills (utility or not, just not credit cards) that spans for at least 90 days.

All addresses must match.

As far as that racist prick in that shop? Fuck him, take your money elsewhere, and hope he goes broke and has to shut down his business due to his ignorance.

Care to share the name of the shop with us????

[jcabin]

Perhaps the gun shop has encountered shady cirscumstances/prohibited legal aliens? How often do legal aliens buy guns? It's very possible that atleast not that often where this gun shop is. Perhaps only 2 or 3 legal aliens have attempted to buy guns there, and were found to be straw purchasing, or were prohibited, or something else in their limited experience that would make them not want to do business with legal aliens.

We should hear that gun shops side of the story before we call them racist gunt smashers.

[ScotsGuards]

One of the few advantages/protections I have as an FFL dealer is my ability to refuse/shut down a transaction at any time for any reason I feel is valid. If I even get a negative vibe from someone, either before or after the transaction commences, I can refuse. I have for all sorts of reasons. Everything from general unpleasent behaviour to blatent attempts at illegal activities and all manner of issues in between.

As for discriminating due to race, class etc. It really depends on how a dealer wants to play it. I don't go on ethnics but on perception of how you present and conduct yourself. If you present yourself as a reasonable, responsable adult I'm good. However if you show up looking and acting like a bad-ass gangsta or other equaly unpleasent charactor, your chance of me selling you a firearm is pretty slim.

To be honest I have had never had any issues with the few green card holding aliens I've sold to. I've had more problems with some of our less honourable "citizens". My favorite recent one was the guy at the VF gun show who at 9:30am tries to buy a handgun with a NJ license and of course I tell him no go. So he comes back in the early afternoon with a "temporary" Pa. drivers license. The guy actualy went to the DOT and somehow got a PA.DL. Of course I told the guy to be gone ASAP.