Police Chief threatens me

[chipminto]

Two days ago I posted a forum topic in here in regards to a preemption challenge in Berks county I was working on. One was in my home township of Douglass and the other in Amity.

I sent letters to both townships and yesterday happened to be driving by the Douglass Township building on my way to pick up the 1/2 of a cow I had butchered by the local beef farmer here...so, I had a little time to kill and I decided to stop in to make sure that my letter was received and see what else, if anything, they wanted me to do. I walked in smiling and very friendly...and of course openly carrying my sidearm (.45 taurus for those that want to know).

Since this is a civil matter, I asked for the township manager Toni when I walked in, as I had no intention of talking with the Police at this time.

Toni came to the front window of the building and proceeded to ask her if she received my letter that I sent to her and the three township supervisors last night via email. She told me that she didn't know if she did or not, and asked me what the email address was it came from. I gave her my address and she went back to look for it. She said she could not find it, then asked what time I sent it. I told her the time I sent it, and then she found it.

I then asked her this simple question: "Ok, so what is the process now for getting the sign changed" (changing a sign in a park that signs firearms are prohibited). She says: "I don't know that we are going to change the sign" and that she had talked to one of the solicitors and that they did not agree with me that I could carry a gun into the park. I told her that the township was violating state law, and that should be addressed. She then said that she would get to it, but that she had "a million other things to do" implying that this was very low on her priority list...so, I told her that while this may not be important to you, it is a violation of state law and my rights and needs to be addressed...she then said, "I am not going to ignore it, you need to go to the council meeting (I had already told her that I was)" and then threw in the second favorite statement of the day (first one comes in a bit when the chief walks in) "I dont know why you think its so important that people have the right to carry a gun into a public park where there are children playing"
So I told her that that wasn't the issue, that the issue was a violation of my rights and of state law and we went around on rights and how a township cannot supersede state law (she said they weren't superseding state law, and I shot that down pretty quickly). I knew that I wasn't going to change her mind (and quite frankly didn't go in there trying to change her mind, just to make sure the twp. follows the law), but wanted someone to explain to me what was going to happen between now and then when I go to the park carrying and the police show up. She told me that she didn't know but that I should have asked the officer that was there when I walked in. I told her well, I didn't but I am asking now. She huffed at me, and then told me to wait....she walked down the aisle to....wait for it....wait....the Chiefs Office!
After 5 minutes of a closed door meeting the door opened and out comes the Police Chief, the township manager, and two patrolmen! Keep in mind that I am openly carrying and that everyone can see that I am carrying.
First thing he did was ask me who I was...I told him my name, wasn't a big deal since I had already given it to the Manager...he asked me if I lived in the township and I confirmed that I did...then this exchange happens...
Chief: "I guess you have some concerns about carrying in the township, do you have a carry permit?"
Me: "I do, but I do not need one to openly carry"
Chief: "to carry openly correct, you don't. But whats going to happen is that you're going to have people seeing you, and they are going to be concerned, and we are going to be coming out and asking you for ID and everything else"
Me:"I won't give it to you if I am openly carrying I am not required to give you ID "
Chief: "Well I tell you what, if I ask for ID and you won't give it to me I will be taking you into custody"
Me: "Fine I will then sue the township for wrongful arrest"
Chief: "Its not wrongful arrest I am taking you into custody to identify you"
Me: "absolutely not, I am not required to provide you any ID. Open carry is legal, and therefore unless you have reasonable suspicion to detain me, I will not be giving you ID"
Chief: "you have to give me ID, how do I know that you are not a felon? Or someone who is prohibited from having a firearm"
Me: "you don't, but unless you have reasonable suspicion, and since we already established that open carry is legal, you cannot ask and I will not give you my ID"
Chief: (getting really angry now) "listen...I have the right to investigate you, I have the fight to get your ID I have...."
Me: (raising my voice to compensate for his loudness" No you do not have the right to ask for my ID. If I am not doing anything illegal, and if you have no reasonable suspicion, you cannot ask for my ID"
Chief: "If you don't give me ID, I will haul your ass down to Berks County Prison, fingerprint you, and find out who you are"
Me: "You can't do that, but if you did, I would sue you and the township and win some money"
Chief: "NO YOU WOULDN'T...YOU MUST GIVE ME ID!!!!"
Me: "How 'bout this...lets both get in our cars, I will go down to the park and carry into the park. You ask me for ID, I will tell you no, then you can take me down to Berks County Prison...lets go do that now"
Chief: "uhh..well..."
Me: "come on, lets go..." (just standing there....no one moving)
Chief: "are you a lawyer?"
Me: "no"
Chief: "go to law school"
Me: "No"
Chief: "this conversation is over, you don't know the law"
Me: "No sir, you don't know the law"
Chief then turns his back on me and walks back into his office...
And I go home.
So, needless to say I will be visiting again with all the paperwork to prove to the chief that he is wrong, filing a complaint with the department against the chief, and demanding from the chief via the Board of Supervisors, a public written apology and retractment of his statement that he will arrest me if I don't show ID.
Should be interesting....

[t1m0thy]

Bravo! More citizens need to stand up to these tyrants. They have gotten away with intimidating us for so long they just don't know what to do when someone knows their rights.

[NikeBauer21]

Props to you, sir!

I would either:

a) Go back with a box full of information. Precedents, statutes, laws, etc.. anything you can find.

b) Go back with a knowledgeable lawyer and have him serve up a nice plate of crow for the chief.

c) Just continue to go about your business, let the tough guys arrest you for doing nothing illegal, and sue them... (be sure to have something to record them with though in case they really do feel like violating your rights)


In all honesty, it seems "c" is most plausible, since getting a lawyer on site will cost a decent amount of money, and "a" probably wont do much, if they are too thick-headed already. But it would hurt to try "a", and if it doesn't work, just go to "c"...

[t1m0thy]

What's really pathetic is that this police chief probably knows you are right but they love the general public remaining ignorant so they can get away with violating their rights and catch no flak.

Watch your back bro. I would be carrying a voice recorder at all times if I were you.

[lionsfury814]

Im afraid that if the police ask for ID and you refuse to provide it you can be detained until you can be identified, and if your carrying the police would have reasonable enough suspicion to ask for ID to make sure your not a convicted felon. I understand its not fair but thats how it works, I've seen it happen, police ask for ID you refuse or lie about your name or whatever, police can and most often will detain you for identification with the thought you have something to hide. So my advice I guess is if they ask for ID just avoid the drama and give them ID then if you are arrested you have a good reason to be mad and they cant say you were only arrested for identification purposes.


and if you want to carry a voice recorder and possibly use it in the event you end up and court someday make sure, tape rolling you inform the person you are taping that you are in fact taping them. That way it wont be thrown out when trying to enter it into evidence.

[Curmudgeon]

What's really pathetic is that this police chief probably knows you are right but they love the general public remaining ignorant so they can get away with violating their rights and catch no flak.

Watch your back bro. I would be carrying a voice recorder at all times if I were you.

^Exactly. Chief sounds petty.

[t1m0thy]

Im afraid that if the police ask for ID and you refuse to provide it you can be detained until you can be identified, and if your carrying the police would have reasonable enough suspicion to ask for ID to make sure your not a convicted felon. I understand its not fair but thats how it works, I've seen it happen, police ask for ID you refuse or lie about your name or whatever, police can and most often will detain you for identification with the thought you have something to hide. So my advice I guess is if they ask for ID just avoid the drama and give them ID then if you are arrested you have a good reason to be mad and they cant say you were only arrested for identification purposes.

WRONG WRONG WRONG

The act of carrying a firearm openly is not reasonable articulate suspicion and cannot be grounds to detain an individual.

Read Hawkins and Ortiz...

[StingyGunner]

You, Sir, are my new hero! Fantastic job.

[Spishack357]

would loved to have been a fly on the wall there, nice job man!

[Pa. Patriot]

Im afraid that if the police ask for ID and you refuse to provide it you can be detained until you can be identified, and if your carrying the police would have reasonable enough suspicion to ask for ID to make sure your not a convicted felon.

This is completely and utterly false.