Police Chief threatens me

[Pa. Patriot]

Chief David Franke
dfranke.dougberks@comcast.net

Let's see what he says...

Chief David Franke,



I wanted to bring to your attention a discussion thread contained on the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners website.

Specifically an individual claims that during a conversation with you that he was given incorrect legal commentary regarding carrying a firearm openly (not concealed) and the requirements to produce ID in such circumstances.



http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-ope...eatens-me.html



If his dictation is correct I would strongly suggest you review the following documents, from your mandatory MPOETC updates conducted in 2009:

http://www.lildobe.net/PAFOA_Docs/MP...pdate_2009.pdf



There have been numerous lawsuits, some still ongoing, in the state regarding law enforcement officers improperly and illegally detaining people for open carry and or refusal/inability to produce identification.



Best regards,
Rich Banks
Founder: www.paopencarry.org

[t1m0thy]

I noticed something else when reading the OP. One other thing you have to watch out for when dealing with police is the raising of the voice. They will slowly bring their voice up to try and make it look like you are yelling and being unreasonable to justify charging you for DC or harassment. Keep your tone calm and low. They are pros at manipulating behavior to get a response.

[Pa. Patriot]

PAPatriot:

Why would you have likewise engaged this jerk in conversation?

Although you're probably better-educated than all of us here, due to your circumstances, what makes you think the greater depth of your knowledge would have produced a result that would be any different from that which the OP encountered?

I never claimed it would result any differently.
I said I would engage him in conversation and that I did not fault the OP for doing so, understanding that it would probably not accomplish anything.

I see no harm in having a off the record convo provided one follows up along official channels so as to get results.

[ReconLdr]

Two days ago I posted a forum topic in here in regards to a preemption challenge in Berks county I was working on. One was in my home township of Douglass and the other in Amity.

I sent letters to both townships and yesterday happened to be driving by the Douglass Township building on my way to pick up the 1/2 of a cow I had butchered by the local beef farmer here...so, I had a little time to kill and I decided to stop in to make sure that my letter was received and see what else, if anything, they wanted me to do. I walked in smiling and very friendly...and of course openly carrying my sidearm (.45 taurus for those that want to know).

Since this is a civil matter, I asked for the township manager Toni when I walked in, as I had no intention of talking with the Police at this time.

Toni came to the front window of the building and proceeded to ask her if she received my letter that I sent to her and the three township supervisors last night via email. She told me that she didn't know if she did or not, and asked me what the email address was it came from. I gave her my address and she went back to look for it. She said she could not find it, then asked what time I sent it. I told her the time I sent it, and then she found it.

I then asked her this simple question: "Ok, so what is the process now for getting the sign changed" (changing a sign in a park that signs firearms are prohibited). She says: "I don't know that we are going to change the sign" and that she had talked to one of the solicitors and that they did not agree with me that I could carry a gun into the park. I told her that the township was violating state law, and that should be addressed. She then said that she would get to it, but that she had "a million other things to do" implying that this was very low on her priority list...so, I told her that while this may not be important to you, it is a violation of state law and my rights and needs to be addressed...she then said, "I am not going to ignore it, you need to go to the council meeting (I had already told her that I was)" and then threw in the second favorite statement of the day (first one comes in a bit when the chief walks in) "I dont know why you think its so important that people have the right to carry a gun into a public park where there are children playing"
So I told her that that wasn't the issue, that the issue was a violation of my rights and of state law and we went around on rights and how a township cannot supersede state law (she said they weren't superseding state law, and I shot that down pretty quickly). I knew that I wasn't going to change her mind (and quite frankly didn't go in there trying to change her mind, just to make sure the twp. follows the law), but wanted someone to explain to me what was going to happen between now and then when I go to the park carrying and the police show up. She told me that she didn't know but that I should have asked the officer that was there when I walked in. I told her well, I didn't but I am asking now. She huffed at me, and then told me to wait....she walked down the aisle to....wait for it....wait....the Chiefs Office!
After 5 minutes of a closed door meeting the door opened and out comes the Police Chief, the township manager, and two patrolmen! Keep in mind that I am openly carrying and that everyone can see that I am carrying.
First thing he did was ask me who I was...I told him my name, wasn't a big deal since I had already given it to the Manager...he asked me if I lived in the township and I confirmed that I did...then this exchange happens...
Chief: "I guess you have some concerns about carrying in the township, do you have a carry permit?"
Me: "I do, but I do not need one to openly carry"
Chief: "to carry openly correct, you don't. But whats going to happen is that you're going to have people seeing you, and they are going to be concerned, and we are going to be coming out and asking you for ID and everything else"
Me:"I won't give it to you if I am openly carrying I am not required to give you ID "
Chief: "Well I tell you what, if I ask for ID and you won't give it to me I will be taking you into custody"
Me: "Fine I will then sue the township for wrongful arrest"
Chief: "Its not wrongful arrest I am taking you into custody to identify you"
Me: "absolutely not, I am not required to provide you any ID. Open carry is legal, and therefore unless you have reasonable suspicion to detain me, I will not be giving you ID"
Chief: "you have to give me ID, how do I know that you are not a felon? Or someone who is prohibited from having a firearm"
Me: "you don't, but unless you have reasonable suspicion, and since we already established that open carry is legal, you cannot ask and I will not give you my ID"
Chief: (getting really angry now) "listen...I have the right to investigate you, I have the fight to get your ID I have...."
Me: (raising my voice to compensate for his loudness" No you do not have the right to ask for my ID. If I am not doing anything illegal, and if you have no reasonable suspicion, you cannot ask for my ID"
Chief: "If you don't give me ID, I will haul your ass down to Berks County Prison, fingerprint you, and find out who you are"
Me: "You can't do that, but if you did, I would sue you and the township and win some money"
Chief: "NO YOU WOULDN'T...YOU MUST GIVE ME ID!!!!"
Me: "How 'bout this...lets both get in our cars, I will go down to the park and carry into the park. You ask me for ID, I will tell you no, then you can take me down to Berks County Prison...lets go do that now"
Chief: "uhh..well..."
Me: "come on, lets go..." (just standing there....no one moving)
Chief: "are you a lawyer?"
Me: "no"
Chief: "go to law school"
Me: "No"
Chief: "this conversation is over, you don't know the law"
Me: "No sir, you don't know the law"
Chief then turns his back on me and walks back into his office...
And I go home.
So, needless to say I will be visiting again with all the paperwork to prove to the chief that he is wrong, filing a complaint with the department against the chief, and demanding from the chief via the Board of Supervisors, a public written apology and retractment of his statement that he will arrest me if I don't show ID.
Should be interesting....

I will say one thing... You sir have balls... good for you.

[Yentl Marmelstein]

I never claimed it would result any differently.

I know you didn't.

Which was the reason for my asking why you would have bothered in the first place.

Not trying to trap you here, Rich; I'm just saying that, knowing all that you know about these arrogant dicks and their sorely-lacking knowledge base, why would you even bother?

[Yentl Marmelstein]

Chipminto:

Let us know which meeting you plan on attending; I'm 20 minutes from Gilbertsville. It'll be mandatory for me to OC there....

Stubborn, ignorant Berks County dutchies are my pet peeve....

[twoeggsup]

Is this the township building on 73, near the intersection with Rte. 100?

No, that would be Douglas Twp Montgomery County (aka: Gilbertsville).

Douglas Berks is on Douglas Drive off of 562.

http://www.co.berks.pa.us/douglass/

[svltrack]

Chipminto:

Let us know which meeting you plan on attending; I'm 20 minutes from Gilbertsville. It'll be mandatory for me to OC there....

Count me in as well. Name the date

[chipminto]

To be clear to all...I did not go into the township building for any other purpose then to make sure that the township manager received my letter via email, and that the township supervisors received the email as well. I offered my assistance to the township manager in clarifying the law, so that my township is in full compliance with state law. I went in there smiling and in a good mood...and even spent 5 minutes small talking with the township secretary about the Community Day and other township things... I did not go in there looking to fight with anyone. However, when a township manager states that they probably aren't going to change the sign, I have the right as a tax paying member of the township to push the issue right then and there. I do realize that the Board of Supervisors needs to act on this...and I have every intention of being at the next Board Meeting in September.
Because of the level of hostility encountered, and because this is a small township, I felt the need to find out what would be happening between now and when the sign is changed should the police be called.
When the chief comes out, and spouts off things that are blatantly wrong and illegal I have no intention of backing down to him. I have had conversations with Police Officers about the PROS and CONS of Open Carry, about where it is legal to carry, but no Officer until yesterday ever told me that he would detain me for not giving him ID...I know what my rights are, and will not tolerate someone threatening to violate them.
Trust me, I know the bag of worms I opened...it is a small township, he knows where I live, and I know that I am not doing myself any favors by going toe to toe with him (and if Chief Franke is reading this you must understand sir that while I will be the first to come to your defense if you were to ever need me, I cannot tolerate you being willing to violate my rights.)...but it must be done. If I don't stand up for this and allow them to trample my rights on this issue, it will just make it that much easier for them next time.

[Pa. Patriot]

To be clear to all...I did not go into the township building for any other purpose then to make sure that the township manager received my letter via email, and that the township supervisors received the email as well. I offered my assistance to the township manager in clarifying the law, so that my township is in full compliance with state law. I went in there smiling and in a good mood...and even spent 5 minutes small talking with the township secretary about the Community Day and other township things... I did not go in there looking to fight with anyone. However, when a township manager states that they probably aren't going to change the sign, I have the right as a tax paying member of the township to push the issue right then and there. I do realize that the Board of Supervisors needs to act on this...and I have every intention of being at the next Board Meeting in September.
Because of the level of hostility encountered, and because this is a small township, I felt the need to find out what would be happening between now and when the sign is changed should the police be called.
When the chief comes out, and spouts off things that are blatantly wrong and illegal I have no intention of backing down to him. I have had conversations with Police Officers about the PROS and CONS of Open Carry, about where it is legal to carry, but no Officer until yesterday ever told me that he would detain me for not giving him ID...I know what my rights are, and will not tolerate someone threatening to violate them.
Trust me, I know the bag of worms I opened...it is a small township, he knows where I live, and I know that I am not doing myself any favors by going toe to toe with him (and if Chief Franke is reading this you must understand sir that while I will be the first to come to your defense if you were to ever need me, I cannot tolerate you being willing to violate my rights.)...but it must be done. If I don't stand up for this and allow them to trample my rights on this issue, it will just make it that much easier for them next time.

It's a shame you have to clarify these things, but due to the influx of trolls and childish/unserious persons posting here people are naturally suspicious of a new or low post count member when they post a hot-button story like this. So folks that have been around a while are simply cautious of posts like this.

As far as I'm concerned... Kudos. We need more people like you...