Are YOU Tired of Paying to Exercise YOUR ‘Right to Keep & Bear Arms’? Aug 26, 2010

[Kratos]

Activist,

I would first like to say, where have you been? We need more rational, liberty minded citizens in this country, and I'm glad you have decided to join our community. I believe your opinions on government and freedom will fit in very comfortably here.

Secondly, I get the impression you may be here at the request of some group or some individual. Do you represent any organization or political candidate? If you are here as a representative, I believe I can speak for most and say, we appreciate that we are being reached out to. If you have no affiliation or agenda, we appreciate your personal attempts to change things for the better.

Either way, rep sent.

[Activist]

Kratos,

I have been here for a long time and that is the one commodity that is, and has been, in short supply for me.

I am Chairman of Firearms Owners Against Crime (and one of the founders) and Legislative Committee Chairman of the Allegheny County Sportsmen's League and Vice-Chairman of the Pennsylvania Sportsmen's Association.

My name is Kim Stolfer and I have been working with or kicking around (depending one one's perspective) politicians for over 25 years here in PA.

I have suffered through the dark days of the 'first' Casey administration, the blood wars over preemption and assault weapon bans, the wishy washy Ridge administration and so much more. There have been more battles behind the scenes than 'anyone' on this forum could possibly believe. (much of what we have done and what goes on in politics is like counter-insurgency work!)

Frankly it is 'very' encouraging to me to see SO many gun owners starting to educate themselves and be willing to open their eyes to the realities of what is going on around them and being done to them. The single greatest hurdle that remains is for them to accept the brutal reality that 'each' of us must decide where he/she can contribute and jump into this fight.

My sole agenda, if you will, is to empower EVERY gun owner to realize that the answer to protecting our freedoms lies in each of our hands AND that we have more power to affect the outcome of these debates and the direction of government than most know right now.

So DON'T go to sleep, DON'T think someone else will do this for you, DON'T let ANYONE stop you from demanding that our rights be protected and for GOD'S sake NEVER, EVER, QUIT!!

Semper Fi!

[GunLawyer001]

Just a few thoughts:

Eliminating PICS wouldn't eliminate the Record of Sale Database. They are separate things. Even if your dealer calls the feds instead of Harrisburg, and they fire all the PICS employees, your dealer can still be required to complete and submit the Record of Sale form.

Listing every bad thing that's happened with PICS is only half the analysis. The alternative isn't "no delays, no checks". The alternative is letting the feds do it. The feds do not exactly have a record of either efficiency, or love for gun owners. I'd like to see the comparable list of complaints under NICS before deciding that eliminating PICS would solve all of our problems. We are required to have someone do this, so to that extent it's like choosing a cancer treatment. Sure, chemo sucks, it makes you sick, it's expensive, your hair falls out; but before you decide to trash chemo, you have to look at the alternatives.

When problems arise (and they always do under any bureaucracy), I like having a small group in Harrisburg to contact. I have a long record of success in resolving PICS issues without going to court very often. When NICS screws over a client, I suspect the national office has less interest in working with some little person in Pennsylvania, than the Pennsylvania employees who answer to Pennsylvania elected officials have. My experiences with the Feds are not so good. Try getting the Post Office to help with a lost package, a damage claim, or a scam conducted through the mails. I spent a month trying to get the Social Security people to change an address for an estate, and I got the runaround and sat in their waiting room for hours. They were incompetent and they didn't care, and they lied a lot.

The Feds don't love you any more than the State does, but you have 50 times the influence with State officials than you do with the Feds. I'm not so sure that handing the background check over to Obama is a pure good thing.

[Kratos]

Just a few thoughts:

Eliminating PICS wouldn't eliminate the Record of Sale Database. They are separate things. Even if your dealer calls the feds instead of Harrisburg, and they fire all the PICS employees, your dealer can still be required to complete and submit the Record of Sale form.

Listing every bad thing that's happened with PICS is only half the analysis. The alternative isn't "no delays, no checks". The alternative is letting the feds do it. The feds do not exactly have a record of either efficiency, or love for gun owners. I'd like to see the comparable list of complaints under NICS before deciding that eliminating PICS would solve all of our problems. We are required to have someone do this, so to that extent it's like choosing a cancer treatment. Sure, chemo sucks, it makes you sick, it's expensive, your hair falls out; but before you decide to trash chemo, you have to look at the alternatives.

When problems arise (and they always do under any bureaucracy), I like having a small group in Harrisburg to contact. I have a long record of success in resolving PICS issues without going to court very often. When NICS screws over a client, I suspect the national office has less interest in working with some little person in Pennsylvania, than the Pennsylvania employees who answer to Pennsylvania elected officials have. My experiences with the Feds are not so good. Try getting the Post Office to help with a lost package, a damage claim, or a scam conducted through the mails. I spent a month trying to get the Social Security people to change an address for an estate, and I got the runaround and sat in their waiting room for hours. They were incompetent and they didn't care, and they lied a lot.

The Feds don't love you any more than the State does, but you have 50 times the influence with State officials than you do with the Feds. I'm not so sure that handing the background check over to Obama is a pure good thing.

I'll agree that federal employes are worst kind of government workers. However, isn't a NICS background check currently required in a addition to the PICS background check anyway?

[GunLawyer001]

I'll agree that federal employes are worst kind of government workers. However, isn't a NICS background check currently required in a addition to the PICS background check anyway?

No, the PICS folks maintain their own database, and they share info from the federal database. A NICS check would be federal examiners (or the computer) reviewing the records and deciding whether there are any red flags. In PA, that decision-making is currently done by PICS. So there's no duplication of effort.

It's also my understanding that PICS allows your mental health records to stay in PA. With NICS, that info would go to the national database. Do federal employees have a better record so far as not snooping through records for dirt on annoying political opponents? Sure, it's illegal. But how many FBI files have been leaked anyway, usually to damage conservatives and people who complain about the government? Something to think about, as you post complaints about Obama.

[Activist]

Gun Lawyer 001,

First and foremost, in my opinion, in this discussion must be an examination as to whether or not we all want to continue to maintain a tax, pics background checks fees, on our constitutional freedoms?

In addition the maintenance of records on firearms owners is prohibited by Pennsylvania law so that will be part of the debate once we work with the legislature to remove the pic system.

Let's examine the differences between the pics system and the nics system. In the pics system you have a state agency under the political control the governor that determines whether or not you have a constitutional freedom. They are noted for the following problems:

1. PICS system crashing frequently, especially around the holidays, when operating under peak demand.
2. arbitrarily making different decisions without statutory authority (AR 15?)
3. Not providing gunowners with all of the information required by law to challenge a denial.
4. Not providing the reason for denying a license to carry a concealed firearm in accordance with the law.
5. Telling police that the system is 100% accurate and that all firearms are included when in reality that is not the case causing numerous problems for gunowners in the field.
6. Creating new categories when purchasing a firearm such as pending, undetermined status, and automatically denying after 15 days without statutory authority.
7. Telling sheriffs that citizens cannot renew a license to carry a concealed firearm permit unless it is within 90 days of the expiration date clearly absent any statutory authority to make that determination.

Gun lawyer has suggested that he prefers having a small group in Harrisburg to contact. I would submit that none of this has mattered since the Pennsylvania State police hierarchy has a reputation for violating Pennsylvania law and holding themselves above it. Case in point, when seizing or confiscating a firearm they do not instruct their troopers to provide a receipt to gunowners which in and of itself is a violation of Pennsylvania law.

Since I used to work for the Postal Service I can honestly tell you that the comparison between the national instant check system and the Postal Service is unfair at best. I would also point out that one just has to take a look at the states that utilize the national instant check system to see how satisfied gun dealers are and what the business climate is like. Since the Pennsylvania Instant Check system has come online we have lost over 9000 gun dealers here in Pennsylvania and we continue to hemorrhage gun dealers who are fed up with the bureaucratic indifference of the Pennsylvania State police.

One of the hidden but significant problems of having a fee for the instant check is that the Pennsylvania State police will shut off a dealer's ability to sell firearms if they cannot locate or lose the documentation that the fees were submitted appropriately. This has happened to dozens of dealers across the Commonwealth and I suspect many more. Dealers are reticent to challenge the Pennsylvania State police and court for fear that retribution may occur.

There is no benefit to having a state-run system if they are not held accountable to the law and anyone that was at the last seminar this week was surely shocked at their latest revelations about the disable purchasing firearms when federal law allows it and now the state police have made a different determination.

I could go on at length here but I would suggest that everyone pay attention to the testimony next week and perhaps you will see a completely different perspective. I respect gun lawyer highly but in this regard I will have to differ with his considered opinion the fact that we must pay for the exercise of constitutional freedom is completely unacceptable to me and knowing that the Pennsylvania State police are making plans to increase these fees 500% is just icing on the cake.

Semper Fi!

[WhiteFeather]

to GunLawyer001 & for everyone else to consider a few additional thoughts

The instant check system is a Feds created problem so the Feds “CAN” or “Could” require the Record Of Sale right now the Feds don’t, the ROS is for now just a PA made up requirement.

The Feds could also tomorrow make everyone ONLY use red ink to fill out the paperwork today they don’t, they can make up any law or make you jump through any hoop they want. More specifically they can do whatever you are willing tolerate like any bully can.... till you take action, say NO......back it upwith action, either way they don't get a easy victory. To often we just give up because the cost of may be doing something may be worse.

Having to deal with the smaller state bureaucracy there is usually a better chance than dealing with a larger one, at least it easy to their HQ. Still when a bureaucracy unaccountable to no one, does it really make a difference if your local zoning or the feds or does it feel better being beat by the Feds rather than local yokels?

People rights & freedoms will always be oppressed to whatever level you will personally tolerate rather than fighting back to keep them.

Sadly we have left the unaccountable bureaucracy Government at all level become a bigger well organized gang with a flag on the wall to rule over US.

Back to the problems with PICS & PA

There are several recent cases of people being able to pass NICS background check, then moving into PA and hitting a PICS (with its added level of bureaucracy) prohibition.

IF NICS is off line guess what no background checks through PICS so one in the country can buy a firearm. If PICS goes off line, 38 other states still get there background checks done as PICS is just and expensive added filter and extra gate you have to pass.

Elimination of PICS will not solve ALL of our problems, as stated before the whole instant check system is a creation of the Feds,. It’s a Fedzilla mandate that would have been better to NOT even be allowed to be born that some national gun privilege groups lobbied for right along with the anti-gunners that we are now stuck with.

Also many of our problems in PA with the UFA have been created over many decades, nor will they be solved with one silver bullet everything will be fix in one solution.

IF gun owners don’t give the existing problems in the UFA a loud voice to the elected Reps why should they care more than US to fix them? Squeaky wheel gets the grease is how politics works

If there is ANYONE on PAFOA that have spent and freely given the time at the level of commitment as Activist has they are on the short list of PA Citizens. If ONLY 5% of the estimated 2 million gun owners in PA gave at Activist level to defend our freedom & rights we could replace or repeal most of the un constitutional gun laws in the UFA in a few years or preferred never allowed them to be created in the first place INSTEAD we got lots of people that whine and complain and speak of phantom activism while they do nothing or be key board commandoes saying someone else should do this or that much like a small child complaining they ate to much candy and their little tummy aches, so someone should solve it for them with a magic solutions so they can eat more candy. This is why most people are not held accountable for their actions. Far too many gun owners don’t bother to give their right & freedoms the same level of protection priority as their firearm get.


Is there any doubt that the elimination of PICS will be cheaper for an individual gun owner?

Is there another reason besides to keep PICS because state tyranny is better than the Feds ruling over US is that good enough not to question at least why it should be allowed to exist?

GunLawyer001 you and Other lawyers may like having only to contact Harrisburg and deal with them rather than with the Feds have you ever made a comparative case where someone recently passed NICS and now won’t pass PICS?

Maybe that’s why lawyers have had some success with PICS reversals is because PICS was the problem, so is it any great feat for PSP to solve what problems they created?

The PSP should be able to demonstrate some success at fixing their mistakes shouldn’t they afterall it was their records that caused the problem?

Is this a valid reason for why everyone to pay extra for PICS just because it May be easier?

Work was created Everyone got paid to deal with a PICS created problems on both side, except the gun owner was made poorer that was forced to foot the bill, the individual didn’t benefit from the extra PICS bureaucracy now did they?.

How about the gun owner that didn't bother to challenges the PICS denial for a variety of reasons from to much bother, to cost of hiring a lawyer,
not know what to do etc? How do they fit in here in the debate...

BTW we have wasted lots of time tweaking the UFA to make people and lawyers jobs easier to challenge PICS denial, This just didn't happen by itself with magic......SO NO ONE FORGET this important part that has already been done because possible elimination of PICS was not available at the time to address the problem of abuse of gun owner rights. We have already tried to work within the constraints of the PSP & PICS options problem is its about as far as we can go without Lots of help from gun owners.

Is having extra influence at the state level always better?

Recently 50 times the influence with state officials was and had to be used because the PSP leadership just making up their own” laws” with the AR-15 or anything with a pistol grip being deemed a pistol. So who did the PSP run to try to give them cover the Feds. So once again the same PA based bureaucracy was screwing over gun owners, breaking the laws and regulations of PA in lots of areas that FFL dealers could have gone to jail for (still might) with the ROS and gun owners having to fill them out. These ROS are still in the system and a gun owner could go to jail at some future point or at least be forced to hire a lawyer to defend themselves. Al because the PSP leadership could and did get away with making stuff up and NO one was held accountable……… Sure gun owners could take someone to courts but in the end the tax payers are the only one that faces the consequences of the few actions for someone else’s political agenda

There are estimated 2 million gun owners in PA how many actually do anything constructive to defend and enhance their rights in Harrisburg? Not with just paying indulgences for someone else to fight as a mercenaries to hopefully represent them, I mean gun owners willing to put boots on the ground, take their time to make their voices heard to elected officials. Take the same percentage to the national level which number is larger and has the most influence? Not to mention the big nation pro gun groups can at least earn their indulgences.

We also have wasted lots of time trying to hold the state official accountable for their actions with firearms regulations right now we have to fight on two fronts both the Feds and the state level over a Fed created problem.

We also right now in PA have to pay extra for a tax just to have the privilege of dealing with PICS that still has to get a approval from NICS before any transaction is complete.

Just leaving PICS to keep sucking money extra money from gun owners and tax payers for some perceived convenience is without at least addressing our corners on the official record is not acceptable either just cause its easier for some groups.

Elimination of PICS might not solve all the perceived problems gun owners have, still it’s a step in the right direction. Taking away its money support system just to feed and maintain the PSP to keep a KNOWN database of gun owners is a good thing, its should be deleted. Whether the Feds have their own database of gun owners is still speculation (I feel there is one) still we can prove the PSP does exist.

The fact that it’s taken 12 years AFTER the creation of PICS to even ask why PA Citizens why should they be forced having to carry the burden of the extra cost to exercise a right without even a cost vs benefit analyze being available, something that should have been done before PICS was originally created

Some more better questions to ask in the PICS vs NICS is debate.

What REALLY tangible benefit has PICS provided for all the millions its has consumed over the many years?

Has the PSP database solved one crime that couldn’t be solved in any other way? go re read OP

What could all of that Millions of money be better spent on that would make the Citizens safer such as hiring more police or building prisons to keep the bad guys under control rather than just paying to keep extra state worker with a state pension and state paycheck just for a database of gun owners?

Who does PICS really benefit then?

Why does / did / do the PSP bureaucracy spend even more money to defend keep and expand the list of gun owners firearms?

The PSP in the past have done everything they could to keep from having or keeping a database or Lost or Stolen firearm (some thing that could have a benefit) yet they always lobby to keep a database of orginal gun owners. What is up with that?

There is no guaranty of success to change anything with these hearing PICS……leaving status quo remain when we know of abuses with the misuse of PSP database of gun owners is not a valid responsible choice either now is it?

We have helped created a window of opportunity here for a redress of our grievances with PICS and the illegal PSP gun owner database. This didn’t just happen it took lots of work behind the curtains for elected people willing to take on the VERY powerful political PSP state bureaucracy.

The elected Reps have done their part to have these hearings at our request to get the facts out there from both sides including the PSP.

IF gun owners don’t care enough about their Freedoms to even be willing to come attend, because their rights don’t means that much to them. Do think vets wanted to march on foot carrying a heavy backpack from PA to another state to fight a battle so we can have rights. Then why should anyone elected or holds any office stick their necks out and risk what gun owners won’t even just give their time to support?

Really why should anyone care what gun owners and sportsmen think?…

yet gun owners will continue to make foolish child like statements this is un constitution, this or that is illegal they can’t do this or that , we need to repeal all gun laws who cares what the silent majority feels. IF you don’t back up your convictions and beliefs with direct actions no cares?

Our Rights only have the value you are personally willing to give and defend them at a moments notice when they come under attack. Its called constitutional self defense much like whey the bad guy choose to attack you. We need to push back then when the constitution is under attack, not at some point when it convenient for US to do something......this is how what is left of this country has gotten so bad why we now have to ask government permission when regulate our use to be constitutional rights

Our cemeteries are full of American that gave all for our rights and we won’t even give our time to support our freedoms…….

I don’t want to take another day off, or take more time away from our family no one ever wants to do this, its a pain. I can almost guaranty that people that actually paid with the ultimate sacrifice with spilling of their blood didn’t want to pay the high price for our rights and freedoms we have left. If we won’t and are not willing to back up our passionate feeling with protection of our constitutional rights with direct action why should anyone care what you think? why should another drop of American blood be shed anywhere for what?

Freedom isn’t free sooner or later someone has to foot the bill.

How about sharing some of your time in support of your rights in which so many on PAOFA are so passionate and articulating about?
Otherwise what the point?

People like Activist and Others as un paid volunteers should say to hell with what going on at local, state - federal level, retire from the battle, give no more opposition and go spend their efforts having a good time doing something much more fun instead of fighting for your rights.....

What I suggest is you and anyone interested in this subject ….make arrangements to come to the hearing on Aug 26 to speak or listen to Other people concerns.

GunLawyer001 I hope you take my offer to attend the hearing, it would be a pleasure to meet you after reading many of your posting …I have much respect of your opinion. IF I need a lawyer about a UFA problem in your part of the state you are on my list of lawyers that I would feel comfortable with hiring.


We can disagree to disagree with which direction we should take, everyone is entitled to their opinion whether is a valid one or not to address the problems with PICS abuses. Still can someone including the PSP demonstrate a real tangible value to keep PICS in its current form with all the taxpayer money poured into a black hole that could be better spent fighting crime with proven effective methods? Now that is the real question is it not ?

Rather than just debate the merits or lack here on PAFOA why not take the advantage of the situation by attending the hearings in OP so people can make a informed decision rather than playing what IF....

So everyone please take the time to come and listen to what the cost to the Citizens of PA for PICS to see if its really worth the cost we have paid and what deal or bad deal we have gotten for all of those estimated 130 million plus in taxes that has done to and for US.

[Activist]

No, the PICS folks maintain their own database, and they share info from the federal database. A NICS check would be federal examiners (or the computer) reviewing the records and deciding whether there are any red flags. In PA, that decision-making is currently done by PICS. So there's no duplication of effort.

It's also my understanding that PICS allows your mental health records to stay in PA. With NICS, that info would go to the national database. Do federal employees have a better record so far as not snooping through records for dirt on annoying political opponents? Sure, it's illegal. But how many FBI files have been leaked anyway, usually to damage conservatives and people who complain about the government? Something to think about, as you post complaints about Obama.

Pennsylvania's considered to be a point of contact state and what that means is there is an official agreement on the sharing of information between both parties. However that also requires Pennsylvania to abide by and adhere to federal law whenever it involves firearms issues-this is something we are not doing please see my earlier posts. The Pennsylvania instant check system links up with the national instant check system to check the triple I index and 13 other federal databases. When someone in one of the 49 other states purchases a firearm the national instant check system also connects with the Pennsylvania instant check system to do a background check on any possible linkage with that name and individual.

So as to the duplication of efforts I would say that that is not a correct description and that there is a doubling of technological intricacies that results in, we all know what computers are like, unnecessary and unwarranted downtime.

Let's please call this what it is-your rights are subject to you being proven innocent with a system like this and you are limited restricted from exercising them until you are proven innocent.

As to the mental health records issue gun lawyer has suggested is incorrect and that none of your records will go to the federal government and the language to that effect is contained within House resolution 2640 on the federal level that was enacted into law. The only thing the federal government will be notified of his whether or not you will be disabled. However I am glad you brought this up because currently in Pennsylvania one can be disabled for a 302 commitment that is not considered sufficient for federal purposes (although there is some debate about this). The problem with a 302 commitment is that it is a commitment for a period of evaluation that does not provide for due process or for you to be represented in any type of hearing. This was one of the areas that House resolution 2640 was supposed to fix but the Pennsylvania State police are not abiding by the law and have not complied with the challenge process provided in this legislation.

If we want to talk about files that are being leaked how about the times that the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation has had their information hacked and lost everything including our Social Security numbers? I know three instances where this has happened already and I'm sure there is more. Of course some in government they'll want to talk about this.

So we are talking about a level playing field let's make sure we talk about the times that Pennsylvania has lost all of our personal information and they don't even bother to tell Pennsylvanians that they are risk of financial disaster or worse being targeted by criminals because they track their ownership of firearms back to them.

As I have said before I have been pushing for this for 12 years because we must change the status quo! I have been in meetings with Pennsylvania State police officials and legislators offices where they refuse to even answer questions related to their operations as if there is something top secret about it. If you think I am kidding here why don't you just file a right to know request and see what kind of answer you get back? Here is another area where at the federal government the law is clearly on our side for a freedom of information act request whereas here in Pennsylvania the Pennsylvania right to know law continues to lag behind in providing citizens the information that a transparent government should.

In balance the federal national instant check system is head and shoulders above in operations and fairness the current Pennsylvania instant check system in my honest opinion!

[GunLawyer001]

Wow, you guys are throwing a lot of claims against the wall, but I'm not sure how many will stick.

Also, I sure hope that nobody is hinting that I like the PICS system because it generates more money for me personally. I think that I deserve better than that. Plus, I charge by the hour, do you REALLY think it takes less time to work through the Federal bureaucracy than it does to call PICS? I've worked with state and Federal environmental agencies, state police, local cops, the FBI, ATF, Secret Service, Social Security, and a host of others, and I get more respect from PA agencies as a Pennsylvanian than I do from Feds as just 1 of 300,000,000 citizens.

I like a local system for the same reason that I like a car that can have its spark plugs changed without lifting the engine out of the compartment. Things always go wrong, or require adjustment and maintenance, and the ease of working on them is an important factor to any intelligent person. We've seen what ATF does with the centralized power that it has to make regulations, and we've seen how hard it is to generate the interest and power to force change. We've also seen that the PSP backed down from their murmurings about treating AR-15 assembled rifles the same as stripped receivers. How much effort would have been required to make ATF back down from a similar decision? Anyone remember the Akins Accelerator? Anybody remember forward pistol grips on pistols? Anybody have $500,000 to try to make ATF back away from either of those decisions?

I don't much like the Record of Sale Database, but it's deceptive to pretend that it's part of the PICS system. The PA Legislature could eliminate PICS and keep the Database, or it could eliminate the Database (by amending Sec. 6111(b)(1)) and keep PICS, or it could lose both, or keep both. They are NOT the same issue, Pennsylvania can require that form and keep the database, or change the age for gun purchases, or add additional categories of Prohibited Persons. PA has police powers, it can regulate guns to the extent that the constitutions and the courts permit.

It's deceptive to gin up enthusiasm for whacking PICS by complaining about the Record of Sale Database, by complaining about the UFA's additional categories of Prohibited Persons, or otherwise promise more hope and change than the elimination of PICS could possibly deliver.

If we shift the background check from PICS to NICS, the NICS folks will simply use the same UFA criteria to approve or deny transfers, in addition to the federal criteria, just like PICS does today. If a 302 commitment is prohibiting under PA law, then NICS will still deny you for a 302 for any PA purchase. NICS doesn't eliminate the UFA, it just changes who reads the records and applies the PA and Federal statutes.

[brewguy]

Holy smokes this makes my head hurt..

When I read the title to the thread my first thought is heck yeah. I was thinking it had to do with getting rid of LTCF or so on.

I suppose what I don't understand is why do we have to have either, PICS or NICS?

Why can't a free person in PA buy and carry a gun if they want?

You guys clearly understand this stuff well, I admit I do not, but it seems to me the fight would be to get rid of all of these gun laws and simple run with the 2nd Amendment and the rule. Maybe that is the ultimate goal?