Are YOU Tired of Paying to Exercise YOUR ‘Right to Keep & Bear Arms’? Aug 26, 2010

[WhiteFeather]

For everyone that may have an opinion on this subject of PICS vs NICS



There is lots of historical information, overlapping complex laws in the UFA , control of a very old registration database, throwing your money away to exercise a right along with state politics mixed into this equation that MANY are Not aware or have bothered to study the full scope on this complex subject in a big picture format.

Not viewed in a limited scope of what does this means to me and my guns.

Instead look at how it effects all of our constitutional rights, now as the PSP bureaucracy lobbies endlessly to constrict our rights over time. Most of you don’t know about the legal & political battle that raged through the 1990’s in PA, let alone most of the things that happened before.


You all should really try to attend this event, everyone is going to be surprised at how bad this system is and has become over time. With an unaccountable bureaucracy, just look at the BS the PSP did with the AR-15’s being a pistol (anything with a pistol grip) with a required ROS, then it morphed in virgin receivers. There are Others, including shutting down PICS and how they have their own interpretation of the law.



Just read all of the negative encounters in the OC – CC forums with firearm being run in clean sweeps (no crime committed) into the PSP non database and all of the abuses posted here. Multiply these abuses by more years than PAFOA existed and lots of stuff that NEVER gets post here……it’s a scary pattern that most of you are not fully aware of how bad it really is.


Most people simply DO NOT KNOW let alone Understand how bad PICS really is.

as a example

Would It be ok IF you wanted to attend a game, or go see a movie and anyone from PA could only buy higer priced scalper tickets to get in? That is what PICS is, an extra cost that gun owners in 38 states don’t pay extra for the same service.

Go re-read Activist posting. The PSP is lobbying for a steep increase in cost that Is sure to keep going up over the years. How does everyone feel about paying more for the same service NICS would do for NO extra charge.

I challenge anyone that thinks PICS is a tolerable constriction of your rights to come attend the hearing get an education of past abuses of gun owners rights.

Take a day OFF go on Aug 26, isn’t your freedoms worth a day to learn about how this complex issue effects you?

We have wasted lots of resources and efforts fighting PICS, or trying to tweak and fix the worse parts with changes in the UFA. Time and effort we could have worked on repealing other parts of the UFA instead was spent on trying to address PICS problems.


38 states use NICS now, gun owners and in those states don't have to deal with lots of the problems posted on PAFOA because of PICS.

If PICS goes away, so would lots of the problems posted on PAFOA as the money that feeds it existence would be eliminated.

Also if we go to the national system there are more active people that could fight against NICS as this system was originally created by the national federal government, Not the state government all PA did was find a way to put a tax on you over the same background check.

PICS is just a added layer of state tyranny we have to pay extra for PSP administration as additional toll gate with every background check.


Come to the hearing on Aug 26 !

[LilEMT]

It's a shame its almost 5 hours away from me. Id love to attend.

[Kratos]

I'm all on board. A redundant system costing $130M is outrageous. However I have a few questions I am hoping you can address in detail.

If we were able to get rid of PICS, would the illegal database actually go away? Wouldn't the PSP just find for another mechanism to record sales? What about all the records currently in their non existent data base? Why would they delete them? I can appreciate all new sales might not be able to be recorded for awhile, but what about all the people who are already in the registry?

What is the actual process by which someone is entered into the database? Whenever I have purchased a firearm I pay for it after the background check, and have not been required to show proof that I could pay for the firearm before the background check. That might sound silly, but how many people thought they had more on their credit/debit card, only to find their wife took some out and now they're short. The background check itself couldn't be used to enter purchases into the registry.

[Activist]

Kratos,

While There Are No Guarantees in Politics, is our fervent desire that the Pennsylvania State police comply with the prohibitions built into the uniform firearms act. With that being said the issue of making the database go away is really up to us.

Why do I say what I did above? Because this is election-year and "if this is to go away" the perception on the part of political leaders must be that we care! We transmit that message by being involved in taking out anti-gun politicians and helping pro-gun politicians either get elected or stay in office. Make no mistake about it, these individuals will know whether or not we have been involved in that is the purpose of some of the posts in this forum.

Now onto your specifics, I have attached a document that shows that the Justice Department believed that the pics unit was not in compliance with federal law. When you couple the prohibitions built into federal law for the protection of this information on law-abiding citizens along with Pennsylvania statutes and the attendant debates during the changes that will be necessary to the uniform firearms act is my considered belief that we will have the upper hand in making the record sale database go away. If this happens the mechanism for firearms sales within the NICS unit does not allow for the retention of this information past the transaction number.

In this upcoming election for governor we have two candidates and the Democrat, Dan Onorato, is endorsed by cease-fire PA so we can imagine exactly what would happen to the record of sale database if he is elected to this position. On the other hand we have Tom Corbett who has publicly stated that he will personally hit the delete key on the record sale database himself. Oh I'm sorry we're back to that political and election thing again!

As to your last paragraph, the process that you get entered into this database is that the record of sale form is forwarded to the Pennsylvania State police pics unit and from there data entry occurs.

I also must point out that the Allegheny County sportsmen's league sued the Pennsylvania State police over this record of sale database and spend over $40,000 challenging this illegal activity all the way up through the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. Very few gunowners committed their time and efforts to help us in the end result of this case was that we were ruled against by a divided court that once again said we did not have "standing"! As that term is unfamiliar from the recent rulings on the "mandatory reporting of lost or stolen guns" lawsuits? It should!

In the end the answer is 'yes' we can end the 'record of sale' database IF we all work at it and show our strength.

[Kratos]

Kratos,

On the other hand we have Tom Corbett who has publicly stated that he will personally hit the delete key on the record sale database himself.

Can you site any specific quote regarding that statement? I do hope this is what he would do, and either way has my vote, but if you can produce any evidence of this, I am sure it would greatly increase his support from PA's large gun community.

[renegadephoenix]

Can you site any specific quote regarding that statement? I do hope this is what he would do, and either way has my vote, but if you can produce any evidence of this, I am sure it would greatly increase his support from PA's large gun community.

it ws stated at an FOAC Meeting earlier in the year.

[andrewjs18]

I cannot make it, but I'll be there in spirit..give them hell!

if someone is kind enough to record the event, I'll be glad to watch it!

[amagi]

I too live 5 hours away (Delaware County). Please, if an upstanding attendee could please record the hearing I would greatly appreciate it!

Give them hell everyone. It's disgusting that this is going on in Pennsylvania.

[General Geoff]

"No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor." --Murdock v. Pennsylvania,
319 US 105, US Supreme Court, [1943].

If this were true, half of the laws on the books (both state and federal) would be void.

[Activist]

General Geoff,

I chose that particular quote for a reason and that is because it does reflect the fact that most of our gun laws are illegal according to the Constitution. Of course that position depends upon the knowledge of the average citizen and their willingness to stand up for that document.

Our current constitution was and has been paid for with the blood and sacrifice of our forefathers who were willing to stand in the face of the enemy and draw a line in the sand and say he will go no further. Essentially what I'm saying is that without the commitment of our fellow citizens to defend what amounts to fancy writing on parchment that document is nothing more than high-priced toilet paper.

Some believe that there is a sunset clause on their responsibility to defend our freedoms or that others can do it for them and those individuals make up lots of excuses as to why they themselves cannot do it. This I personally find unconscionable!

Over the last 75 to 80 years we have watched our freedoms be eviscerated because others among us refuse to act when necessary. If there is anyone in this forum who believes that legislators cannot see that there are over 2 million gun owners in Pennsylvania and then look at the paltry turnout in elections and not do the math then they are only deluding themselves.

We do not expect every gun owner to be able to commit the amount of time that we do but we do believe that each gun owner can donate and/or contribute at least eight hours of their time once a year to make a statement about what is important to them.

So in response to your statement I would say that the Constitution only has the value that we all place upon it. Why should legislators value it more than we do if we are not willing to stand up and protect it?