how often do you draw your weapon?

[Adam-12]

this is my second post and i do apologize if my ignorance or naivety is easy to see...

No problem. Everyone starts out as a beginner.

...ive befriended ex cons and hit men.

You might want to rethink that last bit.

i am searching for ways to obtain my permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" state. You go to the Sheriff and fill out an application, and he's obligated to grant it unless you're legally disqualified. It's true, though, that in Philly the Sheriff often illegally denies a permit application anyway.

im just curious as to how often people here have drawn their weapon to defend what they call their own? what was the situation?

some situations concern me....some situations seem open and shut in the book of the law....if you did use force and force was justified, is the law open and shut...if a man enters your house in the middle of the night and he is armed, you draw, shoot to kill, and you walk?!?

This is where your beginnerness shows. Self-defense is something you can certainly learn and understand, but it can't really be boiled down into a sound byte. I can give you a couple of highlights, though, to get you started:

* There is no such thing as "shoot to kill," ever, period! Learn it, love it, live it! There is only "shooting to stop a deadly threat." When the threat stops, the shooting stops. Maybe the threat stops because the attacker is dead. But in most cases that's not true. He's more likely to run away, or be incapacitated but not killed. In either case, the threat is over; the shooting STOPS.

* Generally speaking, lethal force is justified when you reasonably fear death or grave bodily injury to yourself or others. If your fear isn't reasonable, force isn't justified. If it's not death or grave bodily harm that you fear, force isn't justified. There are basically three ingredients that make up "reasonable fear":

1) Your attacker must have the means to inflict death or grave bodily harm. It might be a gun, or a machete, or a baseball bat, or 300 lbs of pure muscle, or five strong friends, or martial arts training. But whatever it is, you will need to articulate why you believed he was capable of inflicting death or grave bodily harm.

2) He must also have the opportunity. A gun doesn't matter if he's on the phone from Peru. A bat doesn't matter if he's behind barbed wire. Pure muscle doesn't matter if he's wearing handcuffs. Friends don't matter if they're passed out. He needs to be in a position to actually put his deadly means into effect.

3) He must have the intent to cause death or grave bodily harm. Maybe he's hollering threats. Maybe he's running straight for you, snarling and drawing his pistol. Maybe he's telling his friends, "Sic 'im boys!" But you'll need to articulate why you believed he intended to cause grave bodily harm or death.

* There are no warning shots, ever, period. If you have time to fool around waving your gun, firing "warning shots" into the air, etc., then obviously you weren't in any imminent danger, which means you had no business pulling out your gun in the first place. If it's time to draw, then it's also time to shoot; if it's not time to shoot, then it's not time to draw. BE CAREFUL, THOUGH! As soon as you draw, the attacker might break off--which means the threat is over, which means you don't shoot.

* If you actually do shoot, you own every bullet. If you miss your attacker and hit a nun, that's on you. If you damage property, that's on you too. And if you injure your attacker, and now the threat is over, you are now responsible for the attacker's welfare! If you can do so safely, you are now obligated to call an ambulance and/or administer first aid, etc. You can't just leave him to bleed to death. If he is dead, however, then you have no responsibility toward him. Also, if remaining in the area is dangerous, you are not obligated to endanger yourself on his behalf--in that case you should retreat to a safe location and then summon help.

* Finally, if you actually do shoot, you should basically figure that life as you know it is over. You may well be arrested, might be charged, and could, possibly, be convicted. You're practically guaranteed to get sued after that. Win or lose, you'll be broke. And as an added bonus, you get nightmares and PTSD free of charge. The only silver lining to all this is that you're not dead.

That's not a comprehensive education in self-defense and the law. GunLawyer offers a seminar where he teaches all this stuff and more. You can also read Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme. But the above should give you a fairly good picture of the realities. Hope this helps.

[08rookie]

No problem. Everyone starts out as a beginner.



You might want to rethink that last bit.



Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" state. You go to the Sheriff and fill out an application, and he's obligated to grant it unless you're legally disqualified. It's true, though, that in Philly the Sheriff often illegally denies a permit application anyway.



This is where your beginnerness shows. Self-defense is something you can certainly learn and understand, but it can't really be boiled down into a sound byte. I can give you a couple of highlights, though, to get you started:

* There is no such thing as "shoot to kill," ever, period! Learn it, love it, live it! There is only "shooting to stop a deadly threat." When the threat stops, the shooting stops. Maybe the threat stops because the attacker is dead. But in most cases that's not true. He's more likely to run away, or be incapacitated but not killed. In either case, the threat is over; the shooting STOPS.

* Generally speaking, lethal force is justified when you reasonably fear death or grave bodily injury to yourself or others. If your fear isn't reasonable, force isn't justified. If it's not death or grave bodily harm that you fear, force isn't justified. There are basically three ingredients that make up "reasonable fear":

1) Your attacker must have the means to inflict death or grave bodily harm. It might be a gun, or a machete, or a baseball bat, or 300 lbs of pure muscle, or five strong friends, or martial arts training. But whatever it is, you will need to articulate why you believed he was capable of inflicting death or grave bodily harm.

2) He must also have the opportunity. A gun doesn't matter if he's on the phone from Peru. A bat doesn't matter if he's behind barbed wire. Pure muscle doesn't matter if he's wearing handcuffs. Friends don't matter if they're passed out. He needs to be in a position to actually put his deadly means into effect.

3) He must have the intent to cause death or grave bodily harm. Maybe he's hollering threats. Maybe he's running straight for you, snarling and drawing his pistol. Maybe he's telling his friends, "Sic 'im boys!" But you'll need to articulate why you believed he intended to cause grave bodily harm or death.

* There are no warning shots, ever, period. If you have time to fool around waving your gun, firing "warning shots" into the air, etc., then obviously you weren't in any imminent danger, which means you had no business pulling out your gun in the first place. If it's time to draw, then it's also time to shoot; if it's not time to shoot, then it's not time to draw. BE CAREFUL, THOUGH! As soon as you draw, the attacker might break off--which means the threat is over, which means you don't shoot.

* If you actually do shoot, you own every bullet. If you miss your attacker and hit a nun, that's on you. If you damage property, that's on you too. And if you injure your attacker, and now the threat is over, you are now responsible for the attacker's welfare! If you can do so safely, you are now obligated to call an ambulance and/or administer first aid, etc. You can't just leave him to bleed to death. If he is dead, however, then you have no responsibility toward him. Also, if remaining in the area is dangerous, you are not obligated to endanger yourself on his behalf.

* Finally, if you actually do shoot, you should basically figure that life as you know it is over. You may well be arrested, might be charged, and could, possibly, be convicted. You're practically guaranteed to get sued after that. Win or lose, you'll be broke. And as an added bonus, you get nightmares and PTSD free of charge. The only silver lining to all this is that you're not dead.

That's not a comprehensive education in self-defense and the law. GunLawyer offers a seminar where he teaches all this stuff and more. You can also read Massad Ayoob's In the Gravest Extreme. But the above should give you a fairly good picture of the realities. Hope this helps.

ive befriended hit men before i knew what line of work they were involved with. i do need to converse, politic and banter with the general public for business sake. i do not solicit friendship with hit men lol...just wanted to clarify

you post is very appreciated. i thank you and will admit my beginner ramblings are comical. i do not really know the law and specifics of certain circumstances. from friends that are police officers, the consensus is there is no other reason to shoot except to kill. if the sole purpose of shooting was to dissolve the threat then all shots would be aimed at the leg?! would drawing a weapon be illegal if you feel your life was threatened??

is the act of brandishing a weapon if you are faced with a situation where you were being approached by a couple shady characters in an alley illegal??(hypothetical...substitute alley or characters with words of your choice) if you felt that a "situation" was on the rise and you were not faced with a deadly life threatening action but you felt a preemptive course of action was necessary to "back off" the threat....is that illegal?

would you agree that people carry a weapon more for the love of the sport? love of the constitutional right? protection from lethal threats??

[Adam-12]

i researched that i can get a non resident florida carry permit that will carry over to philadelphia?

According to the Attorney General (not to mention the statutes), a valid license from any state PA recognizes is good enough to conceal or carry in a vehicle in PA. A Utah or Florida license would both be acceptable for that purpose. PA does not require that you also be a resident of the state that issued the license.

Be aware, though, that if any Philly cops learn that you have a firearm, they are likely not to know the law on this matter, so they may well arrest you until the matter is cleared up. In a recent case (can't find the ink) GunLawyer represented a man whom the prosecutor tried to charge with unlicensed carry, when in fact he had a license from another state. He successfully got the charge dismissed, but it did go all the way to court.

[Adam-12]

from friends that are police officers, the consensus is there is no other reason to shoot except to kill...

They need a refresher course. Firearms training for LEOs makes it extremely clear that you never shoot to kill, always shoot to stop. But "shoot to kill" sounds macho, and that's what they say in all the cop shows...

if the sole purpose of shooting was to dissolve the threat then all shots would be aimed at the leg?!

You aim for center-of-mass because it's the best way to stop a threat. A leg is a small target, and it's moving; under stress you're never going to hit an arm or a leg shot (let alone shoot the gun out of his hand ). So you aim for center of mass, or depending on circumstances the head (or pelvis), but in all cases your intention is to stop the threat. For one thing, that'll help you avoid a murder rap. For another, it's the right mindset: you need to stop shooting with the threat is over; if you really were shooting to kill, you'd have to keep shooting after he's down, as long as he's still breathing. That's a big NO-NO.

would drawing a weapon be illegal if you feel your life was threatened??

No; that's the first step toward shooting to end the threat. You just need to realize that if the threat ends before you shoot, then you no longer have any justification to shoot. When the threat stops, shooting stops.

is the act of brandishing a weapon if you are faced with a situation where you were being approached by a couple shady characters in an alley illegal??

That's too hypothetical. If you reasonably feared death or grave bodily harm, then it may be legal. There's no such thing in PA as a "brandishing" law; pointing your gun without justification, etc., is assault, plus maybe some other things like harassment, disorderly conduct, and terroristic threats.

would you agree that people carry a weapon more for the love of the sport? love of the constitutional right? protection from lethal threats??

Lots of reasons. All of the above, in my case.

[PA Traveler]

from friends that are police officers, the consensus is there is no other reason to shoot except to kill. if the sole purpose of shooting was to dissolve the threat then all shots would be aimed at the leg?!

Adam did a fine job... far better than I tonight. ETA: (And he obviously types much faster than I do, too!)

That the statement above could come out of a police officer's mouth speaks volumes.... it does not inspire confidence.

Please undertake substantial training in the law of self defense and the use of deadly force before you carry a firearm.

The idea that someone could "aim for the leg" to dissolve a threat comes from (and only happens in) the movies. Reputable training whether civilan, in the military, or the police academy will always focus on firing at the center of mass- the center of the largest exposed portion of the threat - as the fastest and most reliable way to end a deadly threat.

The adrenalin dump, and the rapidly unfolding dynamics of a deadly force encounter will leave you about half as good as your good day (not your best day) on the range. It is simply not possible to aim for an arm or a leg and be effective at ending the encounter.

And the sole purpose of deploying the firearm is to end the encounter.

[MostlyHarmless]

im just curious as to how often people here have drawn their weapon to defend what they call their own?

I think you got the wrong idea here. You protect yourself or others. Not what you own.


Jan

[08rookie]

I think you got the wrong idea here. You protect yourself or others. Not what you own.


Jan

i meant my own life, my own property, my own family

[MostlyHarmless]

i meant my own life, my own property, my own family

That is what I meant. You do not protect your property with lethal force. Unless you consider your wife and children your property.


Jan

[Bug44]

I don't think you're going to get many responses to "how often do you draw your weapon".

I can't really even wrap my brain around the question to tell the truth, but OK, maybe there are people who live in really BAD areas that do this more than you'd know.

This should get interesting.



BTW, there are several extensive threads along the lines of "Have you ever had to draw your weapon?", but I'm too lazy to go searching for them at the moment.

[Ten*K]

i draw my pistol several times a day... after getting dressed and before getting undressed. it's good practice, especially when wearing different types of clothing.

of course, there are no "bad guys" that I have to "keep in line". I think I wouldn't live in a place where I had to draw my pistol for defense with any type of frequency.