Mosin Nagant Rifle/Laminated Stock?

[doxie3]

It appears that there are a few who collect or are addicted to the Mosin and I would appreciate your thoughts. Do you prefer the laminated stock or the non laminated. I am placing an order on Monday and was going to get one of each but since there are so many experts maybe you can help.

Anything else you can advise me on would be appreciated.

I am thinking that I will use Aim Surplus or Clasic Arms. I need to call and talk with them first. Price is similar but are the rifles similar. I will have to ask questions and then pull the trigger.

Thanks,
Bob

[Neo31rex31]

It appears that there are a few who collect or are addicted to the Mosin and I would appreciate your thoughts. Do you prefer the laminated stock or the non laminated. I am placing an order on Monday and was going to get one of each but since there are so many experts maybe you can help.

Anything else you can advise me on would be appreciated.

I am thinking that I will use Aim Surplus or Clasic Arms. I need to call and talk with them first. Price is similar but are the rifles similar. I will have to ask questions and then pull the trigger.

Thanks,
Bob

Personally, I prefer the laminated because I simply like the feel of it. At the end of the day though, laminated or non laminated will still go bang. IE the most important part

**Added**
I like classic arms personally (saw your 2 choices there), however i have not had a problem with either.

[doxie3]

Thanks for the response. I realize that they both go bang. I guess I was wondering if the laminated is easier to clean up, if necessary, and to keep up.

[Grizz2720]

I have purchased from AIM a number of times. All purchases were good and came on time. I do not have any laminated stocks so I can't speak on them. What I liked about AIM is you can request a maker and a hand picked Mosin from their stock. The last one I had picked for was a TULA and it came with clear markings and was in exceptional condition.

[thebearpack]

One thing to consider is that very often the laminated stock models will have more mismatched (electropenciled) parts, so if you want one that's all stamped matching it will be easier to find in hardwood. Laminated stocks are less likely to have cracks, splits or arsenal repairs though I personally don't mind a well-done arsenal repair. They're also typically a bit "cleaner" in that the wood often won't have that sticky sort of feel that hardwood can. Laminated stocked guns will usually command a slightly higher price of course. Honestly though, at the end of the day I really think it comes down to personal preference: I like hardwood because I like the look, the stamped matching parts, and the lower price.

[mak47]

The laminated stocks tend to look a little nicer. If you're looking for a project gun to refinish, then you'll want to go with the hardwood. You can get the shellac off the laminates but you can't really do a whole lot more with them.

The ones with laminated stocks do tend to have more mismatched or force-matched parts. Laminate stocks were used mostly during arsenal refurbishing so this makes sense.

If you want all original matching parts, the hardwood is more likely (but far from guaranteed) to give you that. On the other hand, a gun that has been more heavily refurbished is more likely to have newer parts, sometimes including barrels. A lot of MN's were shot to hell during WW2, got refurbed, and just sat in cosmoline for decades. If you're main concern is shootability, then the odds are in your favor with a laminated stock because it has almost definitely been refurbed.

[7998]

I have a laminated 1931 Isky its all stamped matching. I like the look of the laminated better (redder in color). I like Classic better but have nothing against AIM. I would also spend the extra bucks and get one that isn't counter bored.

[PA Rifleman]

It appears that there are a few who collect or are addicted to the Mosin and I would appreciate your thoughts. Do you prefer the laminated stock or the non laminated. I am placing an order on Monday and was going to get one of each but since there are so many experts maybe you can help.

Anything else you can advise me on would be appreciated.

I am thinking that I will use Aim Surplus or Clasic [sic] Arms. I need to call and talk with them first. Price is similar but are the rifles similar. I will have to ask questions and then pull the trigger.

Thanks,
Bob

Both AIM and Classic have good reputations.

Laminated stocks appeared very late on Mosins in W.W.II and laminated M1938s were very rare. And most of the M1938 laminated stocks were M1944 carbine stocks (recess cut for the folding M44 bayonet). There were a few surplus arms peddlers selling laminated M1938s, but all the examples I saw were counterbored.

Laminated stock on a model M1891/30.

Interestingly, the laminated stock was a stopgap measure to make spare stocks from wood scraps that would have been otherwise unsuitable for gun stocks. The cross grain structure tended to cancel the effect of warping from heat changes and humidity, making these stocks better than the hardwood conventional stocks they replaced. All the M1891/30 laminated stocks that I'm aware of were replaced after the end of W.W.II.

As far as preference, I have both hardwood and laminated examples. I'm still considering picking up a 91/30 laminated sniper as a test bed to test and compare accuracy. So, it's mostly a matter of personal preference.

Headspace: I recommend checking headspace, a lot of Mosin buyers don't bother. To keep this on topic (re: laminated stocks & genera selection), you can read more about headspace here:

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...-question.html (Mosin Nagant Russian M44 question)
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q...=2007&safe=off
http://www.google.com/search?complet...ace%22&spell=1
http://www.google.com/search?complet...=Google+Search
http://www.switchbarrel.com/Head.htm
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/rifles-42...lus-rifle.html (How important is it to check the headspace in a Milsurplus rifle?)
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Gun...x?p=0&t=1&i=41

You should be able to buy a button-style gauge for about $20, assuming you aren't successful finding anyone with a gauge near you.

Gauge sources:
http://www.clymertool.com/headspac/index.html
https://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/st...il.aspx?p=6635
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/gauges.asp
http://www.midwayusa.com/
http://www.google.com/search?complet...24&btnG=Search

Clymer
Forster
Midway
Brownells

...more...

Major receiver variations: "Hex" (actually half-octagonal) receivers were made before approximately 1930. Prior to 1930, the manufacturing was done on the old machinery that used the imperial units. For instance, the rear sight elevation unit is the Arshin or Arshine, depending on who you talk to. An Arshin is 71 centimeters or .71 meters, also 2.33 feet.

Around 1930 Russian arms manufacturing went metric, and simplified some of the manufacturing steps. Older 1891 pattern rifles were retrofitted with the newer metric sights. This is why you still find half-octagonal receivers with metric sights. Original Mosins fitted with the Arshin sight are less common, but not impossible to find. They tend to be in poorer condition and have rough bores. There are Mosins around that even pre-date the 1898 modern firearms rule, which means Mosins made between 1891 and December 31, 1898 are in the same classification as black powder guns.

Counterboring is a process that removes the interior surface of the bore at the muzzle for an inch or more down the bore, and reshapes the "crown" where the counterboring stops.

-- --

Various representations of counterbored muzzles, a post-manufacture repair.

It's a dead-giveaway of a major rebuild, and very likely abusive cleaning techniques that led to cleaning rod wear at the muzzle. The Mosin rifle was originally issued with a false muzzle (kit photo link) to prevent this, unfortunately it wasn't always used. So, I avoid counterbored muzzles if I intend to resell later, shoot now or both.



Matching numbers: All matching numbers come in two basic flavors, matched and so-called "forced match". Forced match means one or more witness-marked part was misnumbered, most likely from a donor gun elsewhere. The original number was crossed out and a new number was stamped or electro-penciled on the surface. Electro pencilling was done mostly after the end of W.W.II, so it's a good clue the specimen's a post-war rebuild.

Matched can be all original, or incomplete gun with parts later added and machine-stamped after the fact to match. It's hard to tell the difference, particularly if the same stamping machine was used to match the more-recently added parts.

Example of force-match. Click to enlarge.

Summary:

• Mosin rifles made or rebuilt after approximately 1930 are found in three major models: M91/30, M1938 and M1944. The 1938 and 1944 are roughly the same rifle, the 1944 has a side-folding bayonet, the 1938 carbine lacks this feature, and does not take a bayonet. While intuition steers many towards selecting the bayonetted model, the 1938 is actually a little better balanced since the bayonet folds on the side of the 1944 (details, photos). There's also been quite a bit of discussion how the bayonet position affects zero on the 1944. I prefer the M1891/30 or the M1938 carbine, and the bayonet on the M1944 makes the carbine feel a little unbalanced to me. Not enough to be problematic, but enough that the M1938 gets first pick in the range case.
• They fire 7.62x54R ammunition. Right now it's still available, but the selection is getting limited to 2-3 choices. The good news is Mosin rifles are miserly with ammunition, so a 440-round tin should last a while. Stock up when you find it cheap, not when you need it.
• If you're not accustomed to rifles, consider trying out a friend's rifle first. Ideally a 22, then work your way up. The 7.62x54R that the Mosin fires is a high-powered rifle round by today's standards. They also have a bit of a report (and recoil) and 1-2 foot fireballs at the M1938 & M1944 carbine muzzle aren't unheard of.
• They're not suitable for telescopic sights due to the receiver design. If you want a scope on your Mosin, buy a sniper variant with a steel base. Some are aluminum, avoid these like the plague. (details) Another option is aftermarket scope mounts that replace the rear sight, you'll need to look around to see whether people like these or not.
• Check head clearance (definition) before firing for the first time. (details)
• Purchasing selection points - I usually ask for all matching witness numbers and avoid counterbored muzzles. It's a cosmetic issue since I want them to retain as much collectible value as possible. Also, laminated stocks seem to have a little more collector interest than the original hardwood stock.
• Please familiarize yourself with bolt disassembly and reassembly, and also setting firing pin protrusion before firing your Mosin.

There are a dizzying array of Mosin variants prior to the M1891/30, and when you add the variations on markings and manufacturers, it expands the field even more. This tends to be a subjective matter among collectors, and I'll leave it at that.

Reading assignment:
http://www.mosinnagant.net/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin-Nagant
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/
http://7.62x54r.net/

There are too many web pages to list in the time I have to type this post, so I'll let you browse a google search result for yourself:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search

As far as which model, that's up to you. The M1891/30 is the most commonly found model, the M1944 is the second most common. I prefer the 91/30 or the M1938, as they are essentially the same exact rifle except for the barrel length. The M1944 is the M1938, with the addition of a side-folding bayonet. The side-folding bayonet makes the rifle slightly unbalanced to me, but not enough to affect the shooting experience. In the end, it'll be a matter of your preference. Many Mosin owners (myself included) choose to buy one of each model, sometimes multiples of each. With prices being held low by ample supply, it is a very inexpensive entry point into the shooting and Curio & Relic collecting hobby.

Mosin humor:
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinHumor.htm

[PA Rifleman]

And while I'm thinking of it, here's a common issue with new Mosin owners:

Setting firing pin protrusion.

Anytime you completely disassemble the bolt (procedure link -- more) or remove the firing pin, the firing pin protrusion setting is disturbed. Here's how to reset it.

Your firing pin should protrude between 0.75mm and 0.95mm from the bolt face with the cocking piece is released (in firing position).

Second, you should have a multi-purpose tool that came with your rifle. Among your stuff you should have something that looks like this:



It has four notches on one edge which serve as your firing pin protrusion gauge.

To use it:

Remove the bolt assembly from the rifle by pulling the trigger and retracting the bolt. Do not disassemble the bolt.

1. Move the cocking piece to the fired position.
2. Lay the notched edge across the bolt face. Note that there are four notches. Use the three on the right, then the three on the left.
3. The firing pin will jut upward into one of the center notches. It should not touch the deeper center notch, and unseat the tool from the bolt face when thrust into the shallower notch.
4. To increase or decrease pin protrusion, slide the bolt head off the bolt body. Turn the firing pin a half turn and install the bolt head. You can use the bolt guide rail as an open end wrench to turn the firing pin by the firing pin flats.

Firing pin protrusion test.
Click image to see original document.

This two setting trial and error type tool is called a GO NO-GO gauge and detects whether your firing pin sticks out within an acceptable range.

[Noah_Zark]

One argument for buying a laminated Soviet 91-30 is relative scarcity of the lam stock. They are by no means "scarce" or "rare," but comparatively uncommon in that you will see far more solid-stocked Soviet 91-30s than you will Soviet 91-30s with lam stocks.

Dan Tobin of Dan's Sporting Goods once told me that by his estimation there are about 1 lam stocked 91-30 for every 25 or 30 conventionally-stocked Soviet 91-30s. He should know, but say he's off by 100% high, that means the lam stocks are outnumbered by 12 or 15 to 1.

Noah