To All You Permit Nazis - LTCF=License=Permit

[mingomom]

I call mine "a note from Epstein's mother"


Extra points to you if you actually are old enough to know what that means.

WBK! LOL..........

[kurt 10/22]

First of all, the importance of language is to convey something. If an LEO asks for your gun permit, you know he is referring to your LTCF.

Secondly, just because it says License To Carry Firearms, does not mean it is not also a permit. Most people say turn signal, I call it a turning indicator. Neither is more correct then the other.

To those that insist on "correcting" every reference to a LTCF being a permit, is that your way asserting your knowledge of PA firearm laws, or is it a deeper issue? Whatever the case may be, I just wanted to let you know it is correct to refer to a LTCF as a permit or a license.





EDIT - Just wanted to clarify this is not about the use of CCW Permit in lieu of LTCF.

Here's an illustration of my point.

Grumpy Old Man - "You got a permit for that thing son?"(Tries not to fall asleep)

Elitist Gun Owner - "No, but I have a license for it."(Thinks to himself about how clever he is)

Me - "If you have a license, you also have a permit, because they mean the exact same thing!"(Think to myself how the Elitist gun owner is not clever at all)

My name is Kurt, I have been called KirK by people that I have politely reminded that my name ends with a T, not a K, and it is always the same response, if they misunderstood, they apologise, if they misunderstood and do not care, they say " Whats the difference, you knew who I was talking to ". At this point if their name is Bob, I start calling them Dave, and they will correct me. When I ask "whats the difference, you knew who I was talking to", and wink, you can see the light bulb go on above their head.

You can call anything what you would like, but it does not make it right. I have a PA LTCF, and an OH CHL. They are what they are.

Your friend Kirk, Curtis, or Kurt

[Kratos]

My name is Kurt, I have been called KirK by people that I have politely reminded that my name ends with a T, not a K, and it is always the same response, if they misunderstood, they apologise, if they misunderstood and do not care, they say " Whats the difference, you knew who I was talking to ". At this point if their name is Bob, I start calling them Dave, and they will correct me. When I ask "whats the difference, you knew who I was talking to", and wink, you can see the light bulb go on above their head.

You can call anything what you would like, but it does not make it right. I have a PA LTCF, and an OH CHL. They are what they are.

Your friend Kirk, Curtis, or Kurt

I don't get why some people don't understand. Kurt is not Kirk, a dog is not a cat, a boy is not a girl, but A LICENSE IS A PERMIT. A license isn't a type of permit or vice versa, they are the exact same thing. The only argument to not using two words interchangeably is if you can prove they don't mean the exact same thing. You can use dissimilar examples all day long, but it's not a valid argument, and just seems pointless. If you can't express why you are right, consider the possibility you are not.

[JayG23]

The only argument to not using two words interchangeably is if you can prove they don't mean the exact same thing. You can use dissimilar examples all day long, but it's not a valid argument, and just seems pointless. If you can't express why you are right, consider the possibility you are not.

Well, in a way they do have a subtle difference. But it's really so minor that almost always doesn't matter in conversations, except in legal ones. Unfortunately, that's a hot-button issue in gun rights land so it sucks all mentions of 'permit' into a draw out issue whether a specific use deserves it or not.

Because words and language itself is just a tool to try and get crap from one head to another head, the difference lies in what else is in the head when thinking of 'license' and 'permit'.

Licensed things are things like plumbers licensed by the state to meet a certain level of knowledge and expertise, they know how to do their stuff without flooding the basement. Licensed electricians won't burn your house down. Licensed optometrists will be able to make your glasses correctly. Licensed dentists won't attack your mouth with a hammer and chisel. Licensed doctors won't leave a rubber glove and a clamp inside your body. Mistakes happen, of course, but remember this concept of being 'licensed' implies a level of professional expertise or experience in our heads.

Permit things are different. Think of something you are 'permitted' to do and there's not really an expectation of quality in your head. You're permitted to go picnic in the local park - does that mean you'll be expected to perform that permitted action well, or are you quite possibly going to forget to pack a knife for the butter? You're permitted to do a whole raft of things, but there's no expectation of quality in the outcome.

Example. Permitted drivers are new, they are still expected to suck from inexperience and lack of skill. Licensed drivers have passed a test, their skill has met a required minimum level.

It's that subtle expectation of quality control that separates the in-the-head concepts of licensing and permitting, and that's the subtle difference between those two words.

Just my .02

Of course, after all that, how does it apply to PA's gun laws? Well, we are Shall Issue and don't require any sort of test or range course on the safe handling of firearms. If we were to give a name to what we have that is most accurate and corresponds to the terms we use regarding quality control, PA would be handing out permits to conceal. Folks would think "He is permitted to conceal, but who knows whether he's got enough skill to qualify for a license".

But, for what it's worth, we've got a "License" that doesn't require the license holders to show even that they know what a trigger looks like. Try that with a driver's license! This is why I would support safety courses being held by the local pd, free of charge. Pro-safe handling, and turn our faces from just someone from a crowd into someone they met at the station who wanted to learn the proper handling.

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

The only argument to not using two words interchangeably is if you can prove they don't mean the exact same thing. You can use dissimilar examples all day long, but it's not a valid argument, and just seems pointless.

Exactly.
Inside 'the forum', it's pretty moot.
Granted, in the courtroom it may matter...........but it's the forum fer crissakes.


Every last one of you is already GUILTY! So don't get all nutsy defensive here!
Refresh your memory here:
http://www.rinkworks.com/words/eponyms.shtml
http://www.searstower.org/rkrause/brands.html


Basically, it's all about 'Proprietary Eponyms'.
Nobody in your household goes ape-shit nuts on another for using the term Q-Tip, Kleenex, Band-Aid, Xerox, Popsicle, White-Out, Saran Wrap, etc...

The list goes on and on.
Get over yourselves.
We all know what it freakin' means.
Like I said before, it's typically the newbies that call it.....GASP.....Incorrectly. So correct them cordially. Not pompously.


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[Kratos]

Well, in a way they do have a subtle difference. But it's really so minor that almost always doesn't matter in conversations, except in legal ones. Unfortunately, that's a hot-button issue in gun rights land so it sucks all mentions of 'permit' into a draw out issue whether a specific use deserves it or not.

Because words and language itself is just a tool to try and get crap from one head to another head, the difference lies in what else is in the head when thinking of 'license' and 'permit'.

Licensed things are things like plumbers licensed by the state to meet a certain level of knowledge and expertise, they know how to do their stuff without flooding the basement. Licensed electricians won't burn your house down. Licensed optometrists will be able to make your glasses correctly. Licensed dentists won't attack your mouth with a hammer and chisel. Licensed doctors won't leave a rubber glove and a clamp inside your body. Mistakes happen, of course, but remember this concept of being 'licensed' implies a level of professional expertise or experience in our heads.

Permit things are different. Think of something you are 'permitted' to do and there's not really an expectation of quality in your head. You're permitted to go picnic in the local park - does that mean you'll be expected to perform that permitted action well, or are you quite possibly going to forget to pack a knife for the butter? You're permitted to do a whole raft of things, but there's no expectation of quality in the outcome.

Example. Permitted drivers are new, they are still expected to suck from inexperience and lack of skill. Licensed drivers have passed a test, their skill has met a required minimum level.

It's that subtle expectation of quality control that separates the in-the-head concepts of licensing and permitting, and that's the subtle difference between those two words.

Just my .02

Of course, after all that, how does it apply to PA's gun laws? Well, we are Shall Issue and don't require any sort of test or range course on the safe handling of firearms. If we were to give a name to what we have that is most accurate and corresponds to the terms we use regarding quality control, PA would be handing out permits to conceal. Folks would think "He is permitted to conceal, but who knows whether he's got enough skill to qualify for a license".

But, for what it's worth, we've got a "License" that doesn't require the license holders to show even that they know what a trigger looks like. Try that with a driver's license! This is why I would support safety courses being held by the local pd, free of charge. Pro-safe handling, and turn our faces from just someone from a crowd into someone they met at the station who wanted to learn the proper handling.

Perhaps the best post of this thread. While you are not arguing any technical differences in the definition of the word, I will agree their connotations may vary. I will also agree that most people associate quality control with license. I do think this stems from learners permit, who many people, in this thread, already have confused with a drivers permit. Who knows.

I do think a good case could be made that permit should have equally as strong as an association with quality as license does. Building permits only theoretical reason for existing is to mandate quality control on builders. Realistically, I see them as additionally providing stable government jobs. However good a case could be made, a words connotation has nothing to do with logic. For example ask a black youth if he minds being called boy, then ask a white youth.

I do find it amusing that you do point out the fact that while most people will associate quality control with license more than permit, that PA has no quality control, as far as training is concerned, with regards to obtaining an LTCF. Your very well thought out.

I am assuming your support for free training courses will not be mandatory of course. I will also agree with you on that.


One more point.

Licensed things are things like plumbers licensed by the state to meet a certain level of knowledge and expertise, they know how to do their stuff without flooding the basement. Licensed electricians won't burn your house down.

I hope your not talking about union plumbers and electricians. Nothing union should be associated with quality control.

[Gary in Pennsylvania]

And while were being philosophical......

golly gee wilikers eXceLon, I don't meant to bust your balls.....but I couldn't help but think back to my psych classes when you uttered the word 'PEDANT'.

Maybe I'm just a pedant, but taking the bit of effort to speak correctly typically gives someone more credibility in my eyes.

And it was Mr Sigmund Freud (and no....I'm NO fan!) who said

The pedant is he who finds it impossible to read criticism of himself without immediately reaching for his pen and replying to the effect that the accusation is a gross insult to his person. He is, in effect, a man unable to laugh at himself." - Sigmund Freud, The Ego and the Id.

Hmmmmm.......he was ahead of his PAFOA time, eh????




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[Emptymag]

Do you know how hard it is for me to not start a thread titled:

To All You Permit Morons - LTCF DOES NOT=Permit

Really though, how are people who use proper terminology not supposed to be offended by this thread upon reading the title alone?

So being corrected offends you. Get over it.
Use the right words - or don't, but don't whine, and call other people names because you don't want to call it what it is.


Sheesh.




ETA: I wonder if I need to spell it out that "morons" isn't directed at anyone specific - it was used as a substitute for the equally offensive "Nazi" label in the OP's thread title. Somehow I think it's likely that offense will be taken anyway given the trends seen in this thread thus far.

[electronics]

Exactly.
Inside 'the forum', it's pretty moot.

Um... moot means debatable. Just saying.

[Kratos]

Do you know how hard it is for me to not start a thread titled:




Really though, how are people who use proper terminology not supposed to be offended by this thread upon reading the title alone?

So being corrected offends you. Get over it.
Use the right words - or don't, but don't whine, and call other people names because you don't want to call it what it is.


Sheesh.




ETA: I wonder if I need to spell it out that "morons" isn't directed at anyone specific - it was used as a substitute for the equally offensive "Nazi" label in the OP's thread title. Somehow I think it's likely that offense will be taken anyway given the trends seen in this thread thus far.

Calling us whiners doesn't change the fact that a license is a permit. Did you just read the title of this thread and decide to contribute your opinion?