Buying a gun in PA with an out of state license

[ungawa]

Whenever you change your address or residence in PA, you have 10 days to change your drivers license. If you have made residence within PA, and have lived here at your new home for 10 days you are now required to change your license by law.

What if you don't operate a motor vehicle in PA?

[knight0334]

PennDOT says 15 days.

From http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms.../chapter15.pdf:

erpp.. I stand corrected. I knew it was a rather low number of days.

[Capt Quahog]

I would like to keep my AZ license for as long as I possibly can for a number of reasons (for one thing my AZ license doesn't expire until 2050 :O ).

This has got to be a gag . . . right? Seems that you want to slip and slide around laws and regulations. As it's been stated . . . if you're planning to, or have established a residency in say . . Pennsylvania, then, after a certain amount of time (PA is 30-days) you're required to give up the driver's license of that other state. Otherwise, a person is in violation of the law on that front.

This is regardless of obtaining a new in state driver's license. I knew of a guy who moved to Pennsylvania and after a month, he turned in his out of state license and did not get replacement PA license. He didn't drive anymore and had no interest.

Do know that it is "possible" to purchase a hand gun in Pennsylvania from, or through a licensed Federal Firearms License holding dealer without a state driver's license. That person needs to show various other proof of residency and personal identity. Even so, these days, a state driver's license has become the principle form of ID all over the country. Without it . . . and a person will need to jump through lots of extra hoops.

[Xringshooter]

To be able to fill out the 4473, someone buying a gun from a FFL must have a valid drivers license OR "other valid government issued photo identification".

If a person does not drive they can get a PA issued state ID.

Also, if the drivers license or other identification document does not show your current address you must also have alternative documentation.

If you want to see what the 4473 says go here: www.atf.gov/forms/firearms/ and select the ATF F 4473 Pt1. Question 20 (Identification) is fully explained to what is required.

[jtwalker]

What if you don't operate a motor vehicle in PA?

If you reside in PA and don't drive, then you get a PA ID card. Not exactly what you asked, but I think it's what you meant.

[kadar]

What if you don't operate a motor vehicle in PA?

Passport.
I have had 2 FFLs deny me a sale due to it. One tried to tell me "You have to have a drivers license;". The other was at least a little bit honest and said he never did it before and did not want to go through the hassle.
Besides those 2, I don't have any problems using it for ID any where.

[Torontogunguy]

Without doing the searching myself I can state categorically that the right to purchase a firearm in any given state is governed by FEDERAL law and that you must be a resident of the state you are making the purchase and taking delivery in for (30 or 90) days, proven by a variety of documents such as utility bills and your identity validated by certain specified documents (I believe that a US Passport is one of them). A drivers license may or may not be one of them, dunno. If you are a resident of another state you may still purchase a handgun in PA but may not take delivery of it in PA - rather you must transact the purchase through a PA FFL and take delivery in your state of residence through an FFL. That's my understanding anyway. And the penalties are hefty for contravening the law for both the buyer, a 'straw buyer' if involved, AND the seller as well. It is not to be trifled with. If you are a new resident of PA or wherever, you MUST prove residency for those 90 days or be guilty of a pretty hefty felony with a pretty hefty penalty. Now, my question is going to be do they define the difference between 'residence' and 'domicile' as defined by law and/or Webster's? I am a resident of several states where I intend to return from time to time as we are semi-retired and living in Ontario, Canada; Pennsylvania; Florida; New Jersey; and likely, at some point Arizona or Nevada. And we own or rent property in each of those states. My drivers license? Ontario, Canada. Wanna talk confusing? We have bank accounts, utility bills, rent receipts, property tax receipts, etc. It boils down to residence vs. domicile and it boils down to how long have you been a resident? I'm thinking it is 90 days.

In view of the SCOTUS decision recently regarding the right of individual states to contravene the second and fourteenth amendments (NOT TO); what effect does this have on HB 2536? And how far behind this decision can a national reciprocity law be? Or a national concealed carry permit? Or a law making concealed carry legal for anyone who is a US citizen and not a felon, druggie or whacko? Perhaps this is what we need to be pushing although it puts all of our eggs in one basket.

[ungawa]

If you reside in PA and don't drive, then you get a PA ID card. Not exactly what you asked, but I think it's what you meant.

I asked because I was told it was mandatory I get/update a PA driver's license within 15 days of changing address.

If I don't drive, is it mandatory I get a PA ID card within 15 days? Is ANYTHING mandatory if I don't drive?

[Xringshooter]

ungawa,
If you don't drive I don't think it is MANDATORY to get a PA ID, it just might make it easier in some circumstances, but I really don't think anyone can force you to get a PA ID card.


Torontogunguy, since you didn't state if you were a U.S. citizen or a Canadian citizen, I've included various bits of info.

From the BATFE:

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State.... An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921(b), 922(a) (3), and 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May a person (who is not an alien) who resides in one State and owns property in another State purchase a handgun in either State?

If a person maintains a home in 2 States and resides in both States for certain periods of the year, he or she may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a handgun in that State. However, simply owning property in another State does not qualify the person to purchase a handgun in that State.

[27 CFR 478.11]

Q: May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?

An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a government-issued photo identification, and his residency with substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills, lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the purchaser’s place of employment, if such documents include residential addresses.

See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

[18 U.S.C. 921, 922(b)(3), (d) and (g), 27 CFR 478.11 and 478.99(a)]


SO, If you are living in several different places throughout the US, but never for 90 CONTINUOUS days (minimum), you are NOT a resident of those states and as such, not eligible to purchase a firearm.

Also, see my other post concerning what can be required by a FFL as proof of your residency.

If you came to me with a Canadian DL, I would ask you for your alien registration card and proof that you have resided in PA for at least 90 consecutive days. If you proved to me that you are a US citizen, I would then ask you to prove you have resided in PA for at least 90 days, using the documents the BATFE said were acceptable.


Again from the BATFE:

Q: May nonimmigrant aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess firearms and ammunition while in the United States?

Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.
There are exceptions to this general prohibition. The exceptions are as follows:

1.nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid (unexpired) hunting license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;
2.nonimmigrant aliens entering the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization devoted to the collection, competitive use or other sporting use of firearms;
3.certain diplomats, if the firearms are for official duties;
4.officials of foreign governments, if the firearms are for official duties, or distinguished foreign visitors so designated by the U.S. State Department;
5.foreign law enforcement officers of friendly foreign governments entering the United States on official law enforcement business; and
6.persons who have received a waiver from the prohibition from the U.S. Attorney General.

Significantly, even if a nonimmigrant alien falls within one of these exceptions, the nonimmigrant alien cannot purchase a firearm from a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) unless he or she (1) has an alien number or admission number from the Department of Homeland Security (formerly the Immigration and Naturalization Service) and (2) can provide the FFL with documentation showing that he or she has resided in a State within the United States for 90 consecutive days immediately prior to the firearms transaction.

[18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(b) and 922(y), 27 CFR 478.124, ATF Rul. 2004-1]

Q: Typically, who are “nonimmigrant aliens?”

In large part, nonimmigrant aliens are persons traveling temporarily in the United States for business or pleasure, persons studying in the United States who maintain a foreign residence abroad, and certain foreign workers. Permanent resident aliens are not nonimmigrant aliens. Permanent resident aliens often are referred to as people with “green cards.”

[granto]

There are a few situations in which ATF considers you a resident of two states. One is if you own property in another state, ATF considers you a resident of that state when you are staying there. Another is for college students going to school in a state other than their home state. The third is with the military, according to ATF, you are a resident of your home state, the state where you live and the state where you are stationed.

Hi guys, sorry to resurrect this forum out of nowhere, but I have a very similar problem and there wasn't much out there. Wiley is correct, I believe. I looked this up when I moved here and asked a police officer once as well: As a student, I can keep permanent residence in my home state while living in PA for college. I personally did this for 5 years because my car wouldn't pass PA inspections, and, yes, because my license doesn't expire for many years. NOTE: I'm not interested on your opinion on this. It is perfectly legal, so, the end.

Anyway I went to buy a gun today and was turned down because of my out of state license. But I don't think he understood this point that I'm essentially a dual-resident. I think I could prove residency through several other avenues, like renting property here, etc., as shownon this page .

So, what to do? Anyone know the definitive answer here?