UT class in NY Times

[mrjam2jab]

NY Times today

the territory sounds like a BCI Instructor class....is Mr Roe here on PAFOA? The byline sounds familiar too...

July 5, 2010
Utah’s Gun Permit Popular With Nonresidents
By DAN FROSCH

James Roe, a 64-year-old computer consultant from rural Pennsylvania, spent a recent Saturday in a Pittsburgh suburb learning about riflings, hangfires and powder charges. The gun safety class was for people seeking a concealed-firearm permit in Utah, some 1,500 miles away. Never mind that Mr. Roe has not been to Utah in 20 years and has no plans to visit anytime soon.

Like thousands of other gun owners who will most likely never set foot in Utah, Mr. Roe wants a permit there for one reason: It allows him to carry his semiautomatic .45-caliber pistol in 32 other states that recognize or have formal reciprocity with Utah’s gun regulations.

“I think that all states should be as broad based with reciprocity and as careful as the state of Utah is,” said Mr. Roe, who wants the option of taking his handgun with him when he visits his son in Ohio, both for protection and for target practice. (Ohio does not honor Pennsylvania’s firearm permit.)

With the Supreme Court ruling last week that the Second Amendment’s guarantee of an individual’s right to bear arms applies to state and local laws, Utah is a popular player in Americans’ efforts to legally obtain firearms. The state is issuing what has become the permit of choice for many gun owners.

Fifteen years after the Utah Legislature loosened rules on concealed firearm permits by waiving residency and other requirements, the state is increasingly attracting firearm owners from throughout the country. Nearly half of the 241,811 permits granted by the state are now held by nonresidents, according to the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification, which administers the permits.

In 2004, Utah received about 8,000 applications for the permits. Last year, 73,925 applications were submitted — with nearly 60 percent coming from nonresidents.

Laws for carrying concealed firearms vary widely by state, as do issuing standards for permits. New York, New Jersey and Connecticut do not honor other states’ permits. Some states, like Florida, allow nonresidents to qualify for permits. Utah stands out because its permit is relatively inexpensive and is broadly accepted, and the requisite safety class can be taken anywhere.

By passing the class and the background check, and paying a $65.25 fee, the applicant receives what many consider to be the most prized gun permit in the country. Permits are good for five years and cost $10 to renew.

Some Second Amendment proponents argue that people with permits are more likely to be law abiding because they have undergone at least some form of background check.

“The spirit of self-defense should not stop at a state’s border,” said Clark Aposhian, a Utah gun lobbyist who sits on the state’s Concealed Firearm Review Board, which helps regulate the permitting process. “Not once has there been a pattern of problems with Utah permit holders in other states.”

But Utah’s permit program has its critics. Peter Hamm, a spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, asserted that Utah’s policy was dangerous because many states were lax in submitting felony and mental health records to the federal database used for background checks.

“I think it’s absolutely shameful and ludicrously irresponsible to say that anybody anywhere who wants one of our concealed-carry permits, and thus will be able to carry legally in dozens of states, can just log on to our Web site and pay 60 bucks and that’s all she wrote,” Mr. Hamm said.

As more people have turned to Utah for permits, the demand for instructors who teach Utah’s gun safety class in other states has increased. Of the 1,097 instructors certified by Utah, 706 are in other states. Advertisements for classes held throughout the country appear widely on the Internet.

Another source of contention is that the class does not require any actual shooting. One could conceivably obtain a Utah permit without ever having fired a gun. Nevada and New Mexico recently stopped honoring Utah permits because the class does not meet its live-fire requirements.

“Residents of other states should be aware that people who have a Utah concealed-weapon permit may not have actually fired a weapon,” said Dee Rowland, chairwoman of the Gun Violence Prevention Center of Utah. “I think that would be quite shocking to members of the public.”

Supporters of Utah’s policy counter that the state’s 50-page curriculum on gun safety, and background checks that are updated every 24 hours, ensure that the system is safe.

“We teach passive defense in Utah,” said State Representative Curtis Oda, a Republican from Clearfield.

“We have no idea what could have happened had there been an armed defender at Columbine and Virginia Tech,” Mr. Oda said, “but we know with absolute certainty what happens when there’s not.”

[DonM55]

I took the class acouple of weeks ago near Pittsburgh. There was a guy about that age going after Utah because his son just moved to Ohio. Hmmm

[mrjam2jab]

the link has a picture

[IronSight]

Some Second Amendment proponents argue that people with permits are more likely to be law abiding because they have undergone at least some form of background check.

In other words, people who follow the laws are more likely to be law-abiding.

[sarcasm]Apparently those constitutional carry states must have fewer law-abiding citizens since they don't need licenses, or those extra background checks[/sarcasm].

Top notch stuff right there.

[DonM55]

the link has a picture

That's him. He took the class with his wife. Think they drove in from Warren. He's a member of PAFOA and it was a BCI Instructor class.

[doug257]

I was in class with him and his wife a week and a half ago! It was PAFOA's own BCI Instructor who taught the class. He was wearing the same holster sans the Kimber in class. We shot the breeze about it during one of the breaks.

BCI Instructor runs a very good class. I'd recommend it to anyone in the Pittsburgh area. He has a great breadth of knowledge and was an excellent resource for answering questions during the class.

[Johncj5]

I think it's in the thread by reporter dan.

Edit: http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-car...-utah-ccw.html

[ExCopInPhilly]

I think it's in the thread by reporter dan.

That was the guy who was on here looking for people to interview a week or so ago

[Johncj5]

Yea, he didn't waste any time.

[akapjr]

When I took the Utah class 6 years ago I had to do live fire.Jason did it that way at that time.