being denied to carry because of references??

[thanker92]

In Lackawanna county I used ref's from NY and NJ.....and the deputy said that it makes no difference....any ref is OK.

[indianjack]

In Lackawanna county I used ref's from NY and NJ.....and the deputy said that it makes no difference....any ref is OK.

Wow great I'll list Obama and Biden.

[GunLawyer001]

The Sheriff (or Chief, in Philly) is required to conduct an investigation; you're required to cooperate with that investigation.

That being said, there is no requirement that an applicant know anyone in a particular county. In fact, since out-of-state citizens can get non-resident LTCF's, there's clearly no requirement that either the applicant or his references be Pennsylvania residents at all.

The Sheriff may deny you for any statutory reason. "Not knowing anyone in this county" is not a statutory reason, nor is it evidence of being unfit due to character or reputation.

What too many LEO's rely on these days is the transactional cost of enforcing our civil rights. They routinely steal money and property from non-wealthy citizens, knowing that they can't afford a lawyer to file a petition for the return of property, or fight a forfeiture hearing. Cops and DA's know that they can steal $500 or $1000 from anyone, and it will cost more than that for the citizen to get it back. Cops and DA's who rely on that are scum, and should be fired and prosecuted.

Similarly, a lot of citizens are getting by from paycheck to paycheck, and they can only rely on themselves for protection, They can't afford bodyguards, and they can't afford a lawyer. So when the Sheriff arbitrarily denies them their LTCF, they can't appeal through channels; maybe they carry without a license, and when they're caught, they lose their gun rights for life.

Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" state, but that's not the reality for some citizens. I think that this area (and a few others) should be a one-way loser-pays system on legal fees, so that if a citizen is wrongfully denied his LTCF but he wins on appeal, the Sheriff pays his counsel fees. You'd see more lawyers step up to help in appropriate cases if there was a source for the lawyers to be paid (which is sort of necessary for those lawyers to stay in business.)

[thanker92]

Wow great I'll list Obama and Biden.

I was tempted to use Charlie Manson and Jeff Dahmer

[run silent run deep]

PM Me with your particulars. And, I will straighten this out

[gnbrotz]

Pennsylvania is a "shall issue" state, but that's not the reality for some citizens. I think that this area (and a few others) should be a one-way loser-pays system on legal fees, so that if a citizen is wrongfully denied his LTCF but he wins on appeal, the Sheriff pays his counsel fees. You'd see more lawyers step up to help in appropriate cases if there was a source for the lawyers to be paid (which is sort of necessary for those lawyers to stay in business.)

Doesn't the potential for this to happen already exist in current law?

§6114. Judicial Review.

The action of the chief of police, sheriff, county treasurer or other officer under this subchapter shall be subject to judicial review in the manner and within the time provided by 2 Pa.C.S. Ch. 7 Subch. B (relating to judicial review of local agency action). A judgment sustaining a refusal to grant a license shall not bar, after one year, a new application; nor shall a judgment in favor of the petitioner prevent the defendant from thereafter revoking or refusing to renew such license for any proper cause which may thereafter occur. The court shall have full power to dispose of all costs. (Chgd. by L.1995, Spec. Sess. 1, Act 17(8), eff 10/11/95.)

[edv177]

wow!! i cant believe how many responses this thread got. i want to thank every one of you for your advise! but first i want to give you all an up date on this matter. the sheriff "barbra" called me today and discussed what needs to be done. she told me i absolutely need to supply two reference from Schuylkill co. and one reference has to be someone who knows me for a long time. i said well where do i get a reference in Schuylkill co. if i don't know anyone here? she said ask a neighbor. but i don't want to ask a neighbor! i said, then she said go to a pa web site somewhere and read the statue about references. i then said 90% of the people driving around me carry a gun. and i feel defenseless without a gun. she then said well i need at least one reference from Schuylkill co.
and the other needs to be a long time friend. she was very nice to me the whole time so i cant say anything bad about her but why do i even need a reference period! i'm not applying for a job or anything. why should i put my friends faith they have of me on the line wondering if im going to go ballistic and get them involved in some way? there asking questing like
" why do you need a gun?" or " is PA that unsafe you have to carry a gun?".
its not fair i put my friends thru this. i already own several guns an had no problem buying them to begin with. i'm all for banning the references idea and will join any petitions to help fight it. i will keep you all informed on up dates as things progress.....

thanks again ed

P.S. i still dont have a schuykill co. reference to supply ={

[edv177]

PM Me with your particulars. And, I will straighten this out

i hate to sound stupid but how do i PM? what would you need ?

[IronSight]

wow!! i cant believe how many responses this thread got. i want to thank every one of you for your advise! but first i want to give you all an up date on this matter. the sheriff "barbra" called me today and discussed what needs to be done. she told me i absolutely need to supply two reference from Schuylkill co. and one reference has to be someone who knows me for a long time. i said well where do i get a reference in Schuylkill co. if i don't know anyone here? she said ask a neighbor. but i don't want to ask a neighbor! i said, then she said go to a pa web site somewhere and read the statue about references. i then said 90% of the people driving around me carry a gun. and i feel defenseless without a gun. she then said well i need at least one reference from Schuylkill co.
and the other needs to be a long time friend. she was very nice to me the whole time so i cant say anything bad about her but why do i even need a reference period! i'm not applying for a job or anything. why should i put my friends faith they have of me on the line wondering if im going to go ballistic and get them involved in some way? there asking questing like
" why do you need a gun?" or " is PA that unsafe you have to carry a gun?".
its not fair i put my friends thru this. i already own several guns an had no problem buying them to begin with. i'm all for banning the references idea and will join any petitions to help fight it. i will keep you all informed on up dates as things progress.....

thanks again ed

P.S. i still dont have a schuykill co. reference to supply ={

There will be a push to get rid of references from the PSP form, but it probably won't happen until at least the next legislative session.

And I can definitely say something "bad" about her, she's clearly a liar. There isn't a single statute that mentions references for an LTCF application, not one.

[GunLawyer001]

Doesn't the potential for this to happen already exist in current law?

"Costs" may refer just to the filing fees, or it may include attorney fees; but "shall have the power to dispose" leaves a lot more discretion to the court than "fees shall be awarded", and it's still hard to get those fees awarded when the court is required to award them.


§ 6111.1. Pennsylvania State Police
. . .
(4) The Pennsylvania State Police and any local law enforcement agency shall make all reasonable efforts to determine the lawful owner of any firearm confiscated or recovered by the Pennsylvania State Police or any local law enforcement agency and return said firearm to its lawful owner if the owner is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm. When a court of law has determined that the Pennsylvania State Police or any local law enforcement agency have failed to exercise the duty under this subsection, reasonable attorney fees shall be awarded to any lawful owner of said firearm who has sought judicial enforcement of this subsection.